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[Music]

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now here's gene Steinberg Marko's this

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week is Paul Kimball just reminders for

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you listeners of the power cast here's

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the news you've been waiting for

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starting July 11th 2010 this year from 6

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to 9 p.m. Central Time the power casts

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will be available in the US at a radio

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station near you on the gcn network will

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still be available online will still be

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available for streaming from itunes and

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elsewhere no change in that but it will

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also be available from the gcn Network

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from 6 to 9 p.m. Sundays starting July

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11th in the meantime since we have Paul

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Kimball here and on the previous episode

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in which he participated we were

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interviewing Kevin Randle about UFO

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crashes and you indicated Paul sort of a

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preference for the ETH did I miss hear

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this no gene you didn't miss hear it all

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the non pers a sort of non terrestrial

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theories behind what UFOs might resent

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represent I would favor the

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extra-terrestrial hypothesis it's always

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been the one that makes the most it's

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always been the one that makes the most

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sense to me it's the one that you can

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look at our own progression assuming

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that is missio Kaku and have everywhere

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to type 0 civilization meaning we can't

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even really get off her on the planet

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when we make the next logical leap it

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will be to leave the planet you know

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we're headed out to space we're not

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heading there today or tomorrow but

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we're heading there eventually assuming

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we survive as a species when you combine

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that with what seems to be a general

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scientific consensus that there is

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probably life not only in the universe

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but in our galaxy and

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ow in our solar system I was just

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reading a news article that I posted on

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my Facebook page about scientists at

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NASA thinking they've discovered at

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least the basics of life on one of

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Saturn's moons I think it was Titan and

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we also you know had people talking

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about the possibility that we may have

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discovered life or at least the

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foundational building blocks of life or

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the areas that life could exist on Mars

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so once you've discovered life within

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your own solar system or at least the

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possibility that there could be life on

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other planets and we're not talking

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about Martians or anything like that but

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life at its at its basic level then

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you've opened the door for the not just

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possibility but the probability given

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the number of solar systems and stars

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even in our own galaxy even in our own

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galactic neighborhood that some of them

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have life and as we discover more and

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more exoplanets I think we'll discover

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more and more planets that are

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earth-like or at least similar to ours

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in being able to support the kind of

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life that is supported here and once

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you've crossed that sort of Rubicon it

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doesn't quite become a fait accompli I

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would say that you still have to either

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go out there and find that life or stay

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here and communicate with it somehow if

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it's intelligent life but I think you

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can make a pretty reasonable assumption

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certainly on the balance of

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probabilities and I would say even

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beyond any reasonable doubt that there

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is life out there once you've gone that

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far and I think most scientists would

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tell you that they're willing to go that

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far now then it stands to reason given

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the age of the the galaxy forget the

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universe in the age of our own galaxy

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that some of that life would probably be

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more advanced than ours if it's

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intelligent and let's assume that it's

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more advanced by a factor of one or two

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you know a few hundred years maybe in a

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couple of thousand years which to us

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seems like a very long time but in the

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Galactic timeframe is a drop in the

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bucket then it would stand a reason I

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think that those civilizations may well

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have developed should have developed

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methods of star travel interstellar

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travel

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now whether they're coming here is a

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different question whether they would be

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coming here as biological entities or

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whether they would be doing frankly what

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we're doing to Mars now whether they're

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coming here or as biological entities or

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whether they're doing what we're doing

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to Mars now which is sending probes what

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we've done you know by Stephen sending

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the Voyager probe out they're sending

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robots or potentially artificial

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life-forms perhaps they're not even

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biological life-forms anymore perhaps

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we're dealing with a species that

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eventually in the Terminator syndrome

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was superseded by cybernetic or

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artificial life-forms who knows but

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maybe we do like that used to do in one

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science fiction series I read where the

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intelligence is when you want to travel

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through space you simply uploaded your

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consciousness to another body and that

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body would either make the trip or would

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be located on the other planet sure

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possibly it's kind of a stargate thing I

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suppose yes our universe has that

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feature if you know what's going on with

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a new series they are able to transfer

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the consciousness of people in the show

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from earth to this far off star system

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and other galaxies even though they

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could never meet in person gets to be

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kind of complicated it's one way of

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adding more guest stars to the show I

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guess probably you know at the end of

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the day I'm a big believer that the

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extra-terrestrial hypothesis is a valid

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working hypothesis to explain the UFO

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phenomenon where I would disagree with

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Kevin Randle or Sam Friedman is that I

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don't think it's been proved certainly

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beyond a reasonable doubt I don't even

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think it's been proof on the balance of

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probabilities I think Carl Sagan was

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right extraordinary claims and aliens

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visiting our planet is about the most

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extraordinary claim I can think I'm

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short of Jesus returning to the earth

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if Jesus returned to the earth call me a

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doubting Thomas and if aliens are coming

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to our planet call me a Deming Paul I

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think you need extraordinary evidence

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before you can make that extraordinary

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claim and present it as the

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extra-terrestrial fact not the

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extra-terrestrial hypothesis ok let's

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jump in with a

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consideration of other alternatives we

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have we understand was the thought

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experiment the late Mac Tony's and

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crypto terrestrials is there any

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possibility there is a civilization here

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on earth that is responsible for this no

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no not in my mind

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I gave Mac's book a good review because

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I think it's well written I think it

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raises a lot of interesting questions I

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think the most important thing about

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Mac's book is that he says it's the

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extra-terrestrial hypothesis it's time

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that it is not the only thing that we

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talk about that's the part of the book

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that I liked and I admire him for his

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thought experiment but Mac knew and I've

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certainly told him I never caught into

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the crypto terrestrial hypothesis is

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something that made particular sense to

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me

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I'm not even sure that Mac actually

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believed it in fact I'm sure he didn't

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believe in it in the sense that he was

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not presenting it as a proven fact I'm

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not even sure that at the end of the day

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he really thought it was the most

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logical hypothesis Mac began by sort of

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merging his interest in transhumanism

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and where we might be going as a species

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changing evolving with his interest in

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UFOs and his initial theory about where

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what UFOs might represent was very much

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along the lines of an artificial

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intelligence that was visiting us and I

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think particularly after he'd gone

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through the whole crypto terrestrial

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thought experiment I think he certainly

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still saw that as a valid theory I think

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deep down although who knows we never

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talked about it in his final days but I

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think deep down he still believed that

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that was the most likely scenario even

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as he kept his mind open and was

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exploring other possibilities and that's

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all to the good so the course we also

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have to look at those other

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possibilities like interdimensional the

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time travelers from the future that

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takes us back to the Terminator scenario

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where people from the future or

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cybernetic inventions in the future came

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back into the past to change history to

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interfere in some fashion yeah maybe I

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mean time travel again I've sat in a

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lecture with Misha Kaku where he said

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the time travel is theoretically

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possible but as I recall he says time

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travel

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theoretically possible going into the

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future but not going into the past you

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can't alter the past who knows I mean

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time travel you know you're at that

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point you're in some pretty esoteric

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theories and we really aren't just

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talking about theories I think space

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travel is the one that we can get our

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mind around because we can actually do

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it ourselves now we can't travel to the

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nearest star system and anyone who says

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well you know if you can just travel to

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Mars in the moon it's not that much

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harder to travel to the nearest star

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system they simply don't know what

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they're talking about it is a quantum

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leap to go from traveling to nearby

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celestial bodies like Mars and the moon

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we can't even get out to Mars right now

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much less beyond in our own solar system

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much less the vastness of space which

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when people talk about stuff like that I

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really don't think they understand what

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they're talking about so we can't do it

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but it doesn't mean other people can't

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do it all of these other things you will

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hear people talk about high strangeness

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and everything I think if you're dealing

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with extraterrestrials from other

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planets that can account for any any

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number of any one of the high

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strangeness aspects of UFO sightings

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because you would be dealing with an

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intelligence a species a race of beings

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that would be I think radically

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different from our own and so everything

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you know all bets are off at that point

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so the fact that you would be having

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high strangeness cases to me has never

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indicated that it couldn't be the

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extra-terrestrial hypothesis indeed I

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would think that if you're dealing with

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extraterrestrial so gonna be pretty

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strange so the high strangeness aspects

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would make sense to me especially maybe

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you know maybe they would be

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experimenting with us or something like

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that who knows I mean if you're a rat

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and let in a maze and you're dealing

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with experiments being run on you by

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human scientists if you could actually

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think it through you go well this is all

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pretty strange the cheese was over there

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yesterday now it's over here and I don't

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even know what that pink Mouse is that

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they've got over here and what they just

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injected in me but it's all very strange

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highly strange well that doesn't mean

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that the doctor and the scientist is

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from another dimension so and Stan we

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00:10:51,650 --> 00:10:50,160
can talk to Stan about this but Stan

277
00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:51,660
doesn't rule out things like the extra

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00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:53,730
dimensional okay now you've just pre

279
00:10:57,680 --> 00:10:55,890
mentioned or basically prejudged our

280
00:11:00,930 --> 00:10:57,690
guests that haven't been announced yet

281
00:11:02,910 --> 00:11:00,940
so since you opened that door we

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00:11:05,100 --> 00:11:02,920
have two guests one of whom is very

283
00:11:07,740 --> 00:11:05,110
close to you and one of whom is far away

284
00:11:09,870 --> 00:11:07,750
or whatever tell us about the guests and

285
00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:09,880
why they're here today well Sam Friedman

286
00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:11,890
I would hope needs no introduction he's

287
00:11:16,650 --> 00:11:14,170
been for good or ill mostly good

288
00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:16,660
sometimes he'll probably the foremost

289
00:11:22,530 --> 00:11:20,050
UFO researcher yeah the last 30 years

290
00:11:25,230 --> 00:11:22,540
and perhaps even 40 years certainly

291
00:11:29,010 --> 00:11:25,240
after Hynek died I think Friedman has

292
00:11:32,190 --> 00:11:29,020
been the face of public UFO research in

293
00:11:33,900 --> 00:11:32,200
kathleen martin is an author she's done

294
00:11:36,450 --> 00:11:33,910
a lot of work with MUFON over the years

295
00:11:38,310 --> 00:11:36,460
I believe although Jean you can

296
00:11:39,810 --> 00:11:38,320
double-check her biography I believe she

297
00:11:42,990 --> 00:11:39,820
was the director of scientific research

298
00:11:45,710 --> 00:11:43,000
if such a thing exists with MUFON I

299
00:11:48,690 --> 00:11:45,720
think she was it and she in stands now

300
00:11:51,680 --> 00:11:48,700
co-authored two books she's the niece to

301
00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:51,690
Betty and Barney Hill the first book was

302
00:11:55,890 --> 00:11:53,650
captured which was the Betty and Barney

303
00:11:57,200 --> 00:11:55,900
Hill story and now their new book which

304
00:11:59,040 --> 00:11:57,210
is what they're here to talk about today

305
00:12:01,050 --> 00:11:59,050
science was wrong

306
00:12:03,690 --> 00:12:01,060
startling truths about cures theories

307
00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:03,700
and inventions they in quotation marks

308
00:12:08,610 --> 00:12:06,730
declared impossible we're going to hear

309
00:12:14,910 --> 00:12:08,620
more of the impossible coming up next on

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00:12:16,530 --> 00:12:14,920
the podcast hi this is tomorrow from new

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00:12:18,330 --> 00:12:16,540
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[Music]

332
00:13:00,910 --> 00:12:59,390
we want to hear from you if you have a

333
00:13:04,420 --> 00:13:00,920
comment or question about the podcast

334
00:13:07,930 --> 00:13:04,430
send it to news at the podcast com

335
00:13:09,820 --> 00:13:07,940
that's news at the podcast calm and

336
00:13:11,530 --> 00:13:09,830
don't forget to visit our forums where

337
00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:11,540
you can talk to fellow listeners just go

338
00:13:16,570 --> 00:13:14,090
to the para cast comm and click on the

339
00:13:26,540 --> 00:13:16,580
forum links that's the forum links at

340
00:13:30,860 --> 00:13:28,430
this is Leslie Kane and I'm with the

341
00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:30,870
Coalition for freedom of information and

342
00:13:36,230 --> 00:13:34,290
you are listening to the podcast the

343
00:13:39,110 --> 00:13:36,240
co-host is Paul Kimball our guests

344
00:13:42,949 --> 00:13:39,120
Kathleen Martin and Stanton T Friedman

345
00:13:45,290 --> 00:13:42,959
the book is called science was wrong I

346
00:13:46,970 --> 00:13:45,300
guess we could say that every so often

347
00:13:49,190 --> 00:13:46,980
because science is frequently wrong

348
00:13:50,810 --> 00:13:49,200
about things and then we change the

349
00:13:51,199 --> 00:13:50,820
science and then we're right all over

350
00:13:53,780 --> 00:13:51,209
again

351
00:13:56,540 --> 00:13:53,790
so Stanton welcome back after a couple

352
00:13:58,480 --> 00:13:56,550
of years to the power cast can you tell

353
00:14:01,819 --> 00:13:58,490
us other than UFOs which we'll get into

354
00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:01,829
maybe one or two areas where science was

355
00:14:07,660 --> 00:14:05,130
wrong in a significant way well we did

356
00:14:12,319 --> 00:14:07,670
seven chapters of the 14 in the book and

357
00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:12,329
I spoke mostly to the physical stuff if

358
00:14:18,410 --> 00:14:16,490
you will I looked at aviation space

359
00:14:21,769 --> 00:14:18,420
global warming

360
00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:21,779
cold fusion here's some controversial

361
00:14:27,410 --> 00:14:25,290
areas there may be well you know let's

362
00:14:30,019 --> 00:14:27,420
let's jump into some of this controversy

363
00:14:31,490 --> 00:14:30,029
and of course it's a paranormal show but

364
00:14:33,590 --> 00:14:31,500
sometimes some of these things are

365
00:14:36,500 --> 00:14:33,600
paranormal a lot of stuff going on about

366
00:14:39,650 --> 00:14:36,510
global warming who got it wrong and

367
00:14:42,980 --> 00:14:39,660
what's right about global warming well I

368
00:14:45,170 --> 00:14:42,990
think that first of all like climate

369
00:14:47,090 --> 00:14:45,180
changes all the time I mean that's

370
00:14:48,710 --> 00:14:47,100
almost by definition you know you're

371
00:14:51,470 --> 00:14:48,720
today cousin tomorrow kind of thing

372
00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:51,480
maybe three days later so the question

373
00:14:55,370 --> 00:14:53,250
isn't whether the climate changes from

374
00:14:59,000 --> 00:14:55,380
day to day year to year decade to decade

375
00:15:01,730 --> 00:14:59,010
the question is is it caused by man that

376
00:15:05,300 --> 00:15:01,740
fancy phrase anthropogenic global

377
00:15:08,150 --> 00:15:05,310
warming agw and that's where the problem

378
00:15:10,670 --> 00:15:08,160
comes because it turns out and there's a

379
00:15:13,730 --> 00:15:10,680
lot of recent work to support this that

380
00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:13,740
the real driver behind so-called global

381
00:15:20,329 --> 00:15:16,770
warming is Mother Nature El Nino of

382
00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:20,339
course but also the Sun and we used to

383
00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:23,250
think that the Sun was constant in its

384
00:15:28,759 --> 00:15:26,370
output of energy so obviously if it is

385
00:15:30,500 --> 00:15:28,769
the amount we get here on earth and all

386
00:15:33,139 --> 00:15:30,510
the other planets is constant doesn't

387
00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:33,149
change with time now we know that that

388
00:15:37,210 --> 00:15:35,370
is a false picture that there's a lot

389
00:15:39,290 --> 00:15:37,220
going on there's some very recent

390
00:15:42,620 --> 00:15:39,300
satellites that have blown up

391
00:15:48,170 --> 00:15:42,630
that turn out the Sun is a variable star

392
00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:48,180
really and so there are cycles partly

393
00:15:52,460 --> 00:15:50,370
due to the positions of the planets that

394
00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:52,470
change their conditions on the surface

395
00:15:58,790 --> 00:15:54,450
of the Sun local gravitational field

396
00:16:00,530 --> 00:15:58,800
11-year cycle a 200 year cycle and we've

397
00:16:02,870 --> 00:16:00,540
come out of one we're going into another

398
00:16:04,329 --> 00:16:02,880
there's been a little ice age there have

399
00:16:07,639 --> 00:16:04,339
been times when there's been far more

400
00:16:11,930 --> 00:16:07,649
co2 in the atmosphere that wasn't due to

401
00:16:15,889 --> 00:16:11,940
man where the climate was ok and it's

402
00:16:18,470 --> 00:16:15,899
easy to point to a villain evils co2 wow

403
00:16:21,769 --> 00:16:18,480
we got to limit it to 350 parts per

404
00:16:24,110 --> 00:16:21,779
million and if we don't all I was gonna

405
00:16:26,569 --> 00:16:24,120
break loose literally it's going to be

406
00:16:29,540 --> 00:16:26,579
so hot in the water it's gonna overflow

407
00:16:31,130 --> 00:16:29,550
you know the whole litany of things what

408
00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:31,140
turns out that's been greatly

409
00:16:39,340 --> 00:16:35,010
exaggerated we tend to forget that co2

410
00:16:43,220 --> 00:16:39,350
isn't even the most abundant gas a

411
00:16:46,819 --> 00:16:43,230
greenhouse gas water vapor is a lot

412
00:16:48,620 --> 00:16:46,829
harder to predict secondly people have

413
00:16:50,870 --> 00:16:48,630
forgotten their on botany I guess

414
00:16:54,740 --> 00:16:50,880
because co2 is vital for the growth of

415
00:16:57,110 --> 00:16:54,750
plants and third it's the implications

416
00:17:01,780 --> 00:16:57,120
of all of this that we really need to

417
00:17:04,939 --> 00:17:01,790
look into if you believe the agw guys

418
00:17:09,020 --> 00:17:04,949
the rest of the world should spend a few

419
00:17:11,900 --> 00:17:09,030
hundred billion dollars to let the poor

420
00:17:15,799 --> 00:17:11,910
third world countries make up for the

421
00:17:19,010 --> 00:17:15,809
fact that we in the advanced world have

422
00:17:21,309 --> 00:17:19,020
fouled up the planet and you know where

423
00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:21,319
the money's gonna come from nobody knows

424
00:17:25,250 --> 00:17:23,610
except it isn't going to come from the

425
00:17:27,829 --> 00:17:25,260
third-world countries that much we do

426
00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:27,839
know so I've done into that in some

427
00:17:34,190 --> 00:17:31,770
detail there are villains here and you

428
00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:34,200
know I like the term Watergate cosmic

429
00:17:40,159 --> 00:17:36,330
Watergate but here we're talking about a

430
00:17:43,430 --> 00:17:40,169
Climategate the doings that East Anglia

431
00:17:45,980 --> 00:17:43,440
University and so forth they're a great

432
00:17:48,890 --> 00:17:45,990
deal of indication that politics have

433
00:17:51,799 --> 00:17:48,900
dominated over science you know research

434
00:17:52,350 --> 00:17:51,809
grants Paul you know about that derby

435
00:17:55,500 --> 00:17:52,360
social

436
00:17:57,810 --> 00:17:55,510
there were lots to get a research grant

437
00:17:59,700 --> 00:17:57,820
it's the indication those stand really

438
00:18:02,190 --> 00:17:59,710
that politics on this issue have

439
00:18:04,860 --> 00:18:02,200
dominated over science or that politics

440
00:18:07,169 --> 00:18:04,870
in some instances and the East Anglia

441
00:18:09,090 --> 00:18:07,179
one is obviously the most egregious one

442
00:18:13,169 --> 00:18:09,100
that most people I think are aware of

443
00:18:15,030 --> 00:18:13,179
may have had a role to play but may not

444
00:18:17,580 --> 00:18:15,040
have been determinative and I would just

445
00:18:19,650 --> 00:18:17,590
point you to there was a debate on the

446
00:18:21,510 --> 00:18:19,660
podcast forums about this and I put up a

447
00:18:23,970 --> 00:18:21,520
quote very recent quote from the

448
00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:23,980
National Research Council which is you

449
00:18:27,270 --> 00:18:25,210
would notice the operating arm at the

450
00:18:30,210 --> 00:18:27,280
National Academy of Sciences and the

451
00:18:32,130 --> 00:18:30,220
National Academy of Engineering so if

452
00:18:35,130 --> 00:18:32,140
anybody's going to represent still a

453
00:18:37,590 --> 00:18:35,140
broad consensus it's probably those guys

454
00:18:39,450 --> 00:18:37,600
and they say their conclusion was a

455
00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:39,460
strong credible body of scientific

456
00:18:43,980 --> 00:18:41,770
evidence shows that climate change is

457
00:18:45,690 --> 00:18:43,990
occurring so you're so far in agreement

458
00:18:47,549 --> 00:18:45,700
with that here's where they differ from

459
00:18:48,990 --> 00:18:47,559
you or at least from what you're

460
00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:49,000
pointing out in the book is caused

461
00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:52,570
largely by human activities and poses

462
00:18:58,110 --> 00:18:54,850
significant risks for a broad range of

463
00:19:00,539 --> 00:18:58,120
human and natural systems so you've

464
00:19:02,730 --> 00:19:00,549
looked into this issue do you disagree

465
00:19:04,830 --> 00:19:02,740
now with the National Research Council I

466
00:19:07,350 --> 00:19:04,840
do as a matter of fact in England within

467
00:19:10,500 --> 00:19:07,360
the last few weeks a couple of their big

468
00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:10,510
committees have decided - maybe we

469
00:19:14,370 --> 00:19:12,610
better look at this whole business maybe

470
00:19:18,539 --> 00:19:14,380
we were a little precipitous and

471
00:19:22,169 --> 00:19:18,549
endorsing this whole agw stuff and so

472
00:19:24,450 --> 00:19:22,179
it's a contentious issue we got all the

473
00:19:28,710 --> 00:19:24,460
world politics involved I mean how many

474
00:19:31,289 --> 00:19:28,720
countries are on the IPCC 2,000 people

475
00:19:35,070 --> 00:19:31,299
there representing the whole world great

476
00:19:37,140 --> 00:19:35,080
jobs great research grants I think that

477
00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:37,150
we will find there's a couple of new

478
00:19:40,140 --> 00:19:39,010
satellites and I'm waiting you know and

479
00:19:42,539 --> 00:19:40,150
it's going to take a while to get all

480
00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:42,549
the data from these guys there's a big

481
00:19:49,140 --> 00:19:46,210
Russian study about periodicity the

482
00:19:51,570 --> 00:19:49,150
climate varies yes but let's not blame

483
00:19:55,409 --> 00:19:51,580
it on evil co2 and I think these guys

484
00:19:58,860 --> 00:19:55,419
are off face yes somebody's about the

485
00:20:01,799 --> 00:19:58,870
heat no so are you saying that we should

486
00:20:03,210 --> 00:20:01,809
take co2 completely out of the mix and

487
00:20:04,650 --> 00:20:03,220
say there's absolutely nothing to it

488
00:20:05,370 --> 00:20:04,660
global warming has nothing to do with

489
00:20:08,070 --> 00:20:05,380
human act

490
00:20:11,370 --> 00:20:08,080
all these factories that we have putting

491
00:20:13,860 --> 00:20:11,380
coal not and by we I mean humans because

492
00:20:17,039 --> 00:20:13,870
the predominant emitters now are in the

493
00:20:18,630 --> 00:20:17,049
third-world countries not not in the

494
00:20:20,310 --> 00:20:18,640
Western world we had our kick and again

495
00:20:22,770 --> 00:20:20,320
that's that's the big argument between

496
00:20:24,270 --> 00:20:22,780
the third and first world's they said

497
00:20:26,130 --> 00:20:24,280
what was good there's another argument

498
00:20:28,830 --> 00:20:26,140
too and that is how we should be

499
00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:28,840
producing energy and should we switch

500
00:20:33,750 --> 00:20:31,690
over to solar and wind and subsidize

501
00:20:36,270 --> 00:20:33,760
them that great extent even though

502
00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:36,280
they're more expensive and that's you

503
00:20:41,159 --> 00:20:38,530
know that's part of this picture what

504
00:20:42,659 --> 00:20:41,169
should be done and in Europe some of the

505
00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:42,669
countries Germany I have stopped

506
00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:45,730
subsidizing building facilities that are

507
00:20:49,380 --> 00:20:47,650
guaranteed to produce power at a greater

508
00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:49,390
cost than the ones that they have and

509
00:20:53,610 --> 00:20:52,090
that makes their manufacturers less

510
00:20:55,380 --> 00:20:53,620
competitive you know there are all kinds

511
00:20:59,190 --> 00:20:55,390
of implications of that kind of stuff

512
00:21:00,120 --> 00:20:59,200
and so I'm saying not that the co2

513
00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:00,130
doesn't matter

514
00:21:08,399 --> 00:21:04,770
every tree around would like to get more

515
00:21:11,159 --> 00:21:08,409
that it's only a part of the picture and

516
00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:11,169
that climate and global warming are

517
00:21:17,580 --> 00:21:13,690
complicated issues that have been vastly

518
00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:17,590
oversimplified by making co2 into the

519
00:21:22,409 --> 00:21:20,530
evil character in this drama well and

520
00:21:24,270 --> 00:21:22,419
that sort of leads to a broader question

521
00:21:25,740 --> 00:21:24,280
I wouldn't disagree with you I do

522
00:21:27,270 --> 00:21:25,750
disagree with you on climate change I

523
00:21:29,190 --> 00:21:27,280
wouldn't disagree with you on that point

524
00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:29,200
that the discussion has been

525
00:21:34,049 --> 00:21:31,570
oversimplified in the media and by

526
00:21:35,940 --> 00:21:34,059
politicians but isn't that always going

527
00:21:38,580 --> 00:21:35,950
to be the case when you're dealing with

528
00:21:44,399 --> 00:21:38,590
science because the vast majority people

529
00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:44,409
don't understand science so you know

530
00:21:48,750 --> 00:21:46,690
what you're gonna get is at best the

531
00:21:50,340 --> 00:21:48,760
Coles Notes version I mean I attended a

532
00:21:53,159 --> 00:21:50,350
lecture this time last year in London

533
00:21:54,930 --> 00:21:53,169
with Michio Kaku who stood up and did

534
00:21:56,610 --> 00:21:54,940
what Sagan did which was trying

535
00:21:58,980 --> 00:21:56,620
I don't think dumb downsides but make it

536
00:22:00,930 --> 00:21:58,990
accessible to your average layperson but

537
00:22:04,049 --> 00:22:00,940
at the end of the day he's dumbing it

538
00:22:05,399 --> 00:22:04,059
down he's talking about things trying to

539
00:22:07,140 --> 00:22:05,409
make it understandable for all the rest

540
00:22:08,730 --> 00:22:07,150
of us I've seen you do it when talking

541
00:22:10,409 --> 00:22:08,740
about wormholes and you used the little

542
00:22:11,850 --> 00:22:10,419
paper thing and you you bring the two

543
00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:11,860
edges together and explain how you could

544
00:22:15,570 --> 00:22:14,530
travel through space but for the rest of

545
00:22:17,220 --> 00:22:15,580
us to have a reasonable conversation

546
00:22:18,070 --> 00:22:17,230
about something that we really don't

547
00:22:20,260 --> 00:22:18,080
understand

548
00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:20,270
and at best we're going to be getting

549
00:22:24,900 --> 00:22:22,850
sound bites for can you really blame it

550
00:22:27,910 --> 00:22:24,910
we blame people for sort of taking

551
00:22:29,500 --> 00:22:27,920
perhaps a less nuanced view of it than

552
00:22:32,020 --> 00:22:29,510
you might otherwise expect to scientists

553
00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:32,030
to take no I can't do we live in that

554
00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:34,490
kind of a world I guess I would say but

555
00:22:38,710 --> 00:22:36,530
the problem here is that their

556
00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:38,720
implications of some of these things

557
00:22:44,650 --> 00:22:42,530
Pepe did a great job for example about

558
00:22:47,770 --> 00:22:44,660
those guys who were trying to exclude

559
00:22:49,690 --> 00:22:47,780
all but the most desirable people from

560
00:22:51,970 --> 00:22:49,700
the country that had serious

561
00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:51,980
implications Hitler took care of that

562
00:22:57,190 --> 00:22:54,530
and the voices of reason what speaking

563
00:22:59,260 --> 00:22:57,200
helped a lot don't you find that to be

564
00:23:04,060 --> 00:22:59,270
the case Katherine yes that's absolutely

565
00:23:06,870 --> 00:23:04,070
true some people within the academic

566
00:23:10,420 --> 00:23:06,880
realm were speaking out but it wasn't

567
00:23:12,310 --> 00:23:10,430
widespread and the implications of what

568
00:23:16,120 --> 00:23:12,320
they were trying to do are pretty severe

569
00:23:18,010 --> 00:23:16,130
as is discussed in the book what I'm

570
00:23:20,740 --> 00:23:18,020
saying is there are issues that have

571
00:23:23,890 --> 00:23:20,750
relevance to the lives of many people

572
00:23:27,490 --> 00:23:23,900
that need to be gone over very carefully

573
00:23:29,170 --> 00:23:27,500
before one jumps on the bandwagon so to

574
00:23:31,420 --> 00:23:29,180
speak you know when maybe it's the

575
00:23:33,190 --> 00:23:31,430
24-hour news cycle I don't know what

576
00:23:34,930 --> 00:23:33,200
drives all this stuff

577
00:23:37,570 --> 00:23:34,940
maybe it's people need to learn more

578
00:23:40,300 --> 00:23:37,580
about science maybe we're not interested

579
00:23:42,130 --> 00:23:40,310
in that kind of controversy people are

580
00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:42,140
afraid to speak out I you know there are

581
00:23:47,470 --> 00:23:44,450
awful lot of professors who might want

582
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:47,480
to speak out on subjects but do you wish

583
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:49,610
you might lose research grants you know

584
00:23:53,950 --> 00:23:52,010
I've heard people on the UFO subject

585
00:23:56,470 --> 00:23:53,960
don't tell anybody I'm interested you

586
00:24:01,120 --> 00:23:56,480
know because it would hurt my future and

587
00:24:03,490 --> 00:24:01,130
so when we don't have the access to the

588
00:24:05,380 --> 00:24:03,500
people who could bring a little cleanse

589
00:24:07,810 --> 00:24:05,390
to the discussion we're in deeper

590
00:24:10,870 --> 00:24:07,820
trouble and yes dumbing down is a

591
00:24:13,930 --> 00:24:10,880
problem but part of the dumbing down has

592
00:24:16,270 --> 00:24:13,940
been and ratio is is a good example of

593
00:24:19,630 --> 00:24:16,280
this when you start talking about string

594
00:24:22,630 --> 00:24:19,640
theory and multi-dimensional spaces and

595
00:24:24,310 --> 00:24:22,640
stuff like that how else can you talk

596
00:24:26,710 --> 00:24:24,320
you're not going to talk about how many

597
00:24:27,780 --> 00:24:26,720
equations it takes to describe it on the

598
00:24:29,460 --> 00:24:27,790
other hand

599
00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:29,470
those are things that have gotten by for

600
00:24:35,310 --> 00:24:31,330
years without having validation

601
00:24:37,050 --> 00:24:35,320
particularly interesting theory kind of

602
00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:37,060
thing and who can argue if we can't go

603
00:24:40,740 --> 00:24:39,010
through all the math that doesn't mean

604
00:24:43,170 --> 00:24:40,750
the methods right it's the difference

605
00:24:45,450 --> 00:24:43,180
between science fact proven science fact

606
00:24:47,730 --> 00:24:45,460
and well I wouldn't say science fiction

607
00:24:50,580 --> 00:24:47,740
but science theory and I think in that

608
00:24:52,950 --> 00:24:50,590
case Kaku recognizes that string theory

609
00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:52,960
I mean he calls it string theory so I

610
00:24:57,780 --> 00:24:54,970
think he believes that it's valid but I

611
00:25:00,120 --> 00:24:57,790
think he also understands that it's not

612
00:25:02,190 --> 00:25:00,130
proven yet to be valid in the same way

613
00:25:03,330 --> 00:25:02,200
that gravity is for instance or or

614
00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:03,340
something like that and we know it's

615
00:25:09,210 --> 00:25:06,250
there yeah one final question for you on

616
00:25:10,740 --> 00:25:09,220
the on the global warming thing and then

617
00:25:12,150 --> 00:25:10,750
maybe we can switch over to eugenics

618
00:25:14,070 --> 00:25:12,160
because that's something I've almost

619
00:25:17,130 --> 00:25:14,080
found interesting and I think is as

620
00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:17,140
timely today as it was 70 or 80 years

621
00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:18,730
ago as a subject but one final thing on

622
00:25:23,130 --> 00:25:20,290
the global warming thing and let me be

623
00:25:25,140 --> 00:25:23,140
cheeky here what kind of power stand

624
00:25:27,900 --> 00:25:25,150
would you suggest that if we were to

625
00:25:29,790 --> 00:25:27,910
replace co2 or at least you know have

626
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:29,800
less of it what kind of power should we

627
00:25:36,780 --> 00:25:33,010
be using where should we be the answer

628
00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:36,790
is twofold you know no waste power the

629
00:25:42,750 --> 00:25:38,650
way we do all over the place all the

630
00:25:45,540 --> 00:25:42,760
time and secondly nuclear power and that

631
00:25:48,060 --> 00:25:45,550
leads of course to electric vehicles and

632
00:25:52,260 --> 00:25:48,070
stuff you use nuclear power to produce

633
00:25:55,620 --> 00:25:52,270
the electricity you gain a double

634
00:25:57,690 --> 00:25:55,630
advantage I think and the thing is the

635
00:25:59,910 --> 00:25:57,700
world is gearing up there already over

636
00:26:02,130 --> 00:25:59,920
400 nuclear power plants around the

637
00:26:04,860 --> 00:26:02,140
world operating safely and there's a

638
00:26:06,990 --> 00:26:04,870
whole bunch in the planning stage and I

639
00:26:10,470 --> 00:26:07,000
Canada is trying to get into the act and

640
00:26:12,630 --> 00:26:10,480
if I can get a ECL straight they might

641
00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:12,640
get there but some of the attacks on

642
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:16,810
nuclear power are pretty irrational I

643
00:26:21,150 --> 00:26:19,330
found their legitimate concerns my

644
00:26:25,580 --> 00:26:21,160
goodness I don't want to spray the world

645
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:25,590
with excess radioactivity but I think

646
00:26:31,410 --> 00:26:28,930
nuclear is the obvious choice and when

647
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:31,420
you look at that mess down and the Gulf

648
00:26:38,430 --> 00:26:37,090
you say we don't do that well yeah the

649
00:26:39,810 --> 00:26:38,440
only question I would have is I was

650
00:26:41,909 --> 00:26:39,820
living in the United Kingdom

651
00:26:44,070 --> 00:26:41,919
when the Chernobyl disaster happened and

652
00:26:46,349 --> 00:26:44,080
I have a feeling that as bad as the Gulf

653
00:26:48,690 --> 00:26:46,359
oil spill is going to be there's going

654
00:26:51,419 --> 00:26:48,700
to be fewer people died as a result of

655
00:26:53,430 --> 00:26:51,429
it in fewer long-term implications then

656
00:26:54,989 --> 00:26:53,440
there were fortune Obul but you know

657
00:26:56,729 --> 00:26:54,999
both are bad I think you could agree

658
00:27:00,269 --> 00:26:56,739
that both the Gulf oil spill and the

659
00:27:03,779 --> 00:27:00,279
nuclear meltdown are both bad things yes

660
00:27:04,950 --> 00:27:03,789
just which is why I think a lot of

661
00:27:07,859 --> 00:27:04,960
people look and they point to things

662
00:27:09,239 --> 00:27:07,869
like solar power and wind power and they

663
00:27:17,279 --> 00:27:09,249
say well okay maybe these are better

664
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:17,289
alternatives picture this you're on the

665
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:19,570
phone with a client or colleague trying

666
00:27:25,349 --> 00:27:22,210
to explain something visual a PowerPoint

667
00:27:27,899 --> 00:27:25,359
a keynote presentation a website but

668
00:27:29,820 --> 00:27:27,909
it's frustrating because they can't see

669
00:27:32,759 --> 00:27:29,830
what you're talking about the solution

670
00:27:36,479 --> 00:27:32,769
good news they can if you invite them to

671
00:27:38,820 --> 00:27:36,489
an online meeting using GoToMeeting then

672
00:27:41,310 --> 00:27:38,830
they can see your computer desktop on

673
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:41,320
their computer screen so you can show

674
00:27:44,879 --> 00:27:43,570
them what you're talking about I use go

675
00:27:47,460 --> 00:27:44,889
to meeting all the time to collaborate

676
00:27:50,759 --> 00:27:47,470
with colleagues and with clients you can

677
00:27:54,629 --> 00:27:50,769
try go to meeting free for 30-days but

678
00:27:58,409 --> 00:27:54,639
you must visit go to meetings / podcasts

679
00:28:04,570 --> 00:27:58,419
let's go to meeting.com slash podcasts

680
00:28:10,620 --> 00:28:07,840
this is the bear gasps you never know

681
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:10,630
what's gonna happen next

682
00:28:19,050 --> 00:28:16,470
on the parent cast this week we have

683
00:28:22,470 --> 00:28:19,060
Paul Kimball our co-host and we're

684
00:28:24,930 --> 00:28:22,480
featuring Kathleen Martin and Stanton T

685
00:28:26,730 --> 00:28:24,940
Friedman and they are collectively

686
00:28:28,650 --> 00:28:26,740
authors of a new book called science was

687
00:28:32,070 --> 00:28:28,660
wrong startling truths about cures

688
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:32,080
theories and inventions they declared

689
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:32,890
impossible

690
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:34,690
okay so we've raised questions about

691
00:28:40,500 --> 00:28:36,970
global warming one other subject you

692
00:28:43,020 --> 00:28:40,510
mentioned eugenics how so Stan or

693
00:28:47,100 --> 00:28:43,030
Kathleen who wants to take this that was

694
00:28:49,770 --> 00:28:47,110
nice yes the eugenics movement in

695
00:28:54,090 --> 00:28:49,780
America was the outgrowth of social

696
00:28:58,110 --> 00:28:54,100
Darwinism Sir Francis Galton who was a

697
00:29:01,050 --> 00:28:58,120
cousin of Darwin Charles Darwin was the

698
00:29:05,460 --> 00:29:01,060
person who started to promote this in a

699
00:29:09,180 --> 00:29:05,470
positive way that we should do our best

700
00:29:13,500 --> 00:29:09,190
to produce a very good productive human

701
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:13,510
society however when the movement was

702
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:17,610
promoted in America by Charles Davenport

703
00:29:25,650 --> 00:29:21,970
it took a different turn and it really

704
00:29:30,030 --> 00:29:25,660
took on sort of a negative point of view

705
00:29:32,510 --> 00:29:30,040
in that only certain characteristics

706
00:29:36,380 --> 00:29:32,520
were acceptable and that other

707
00:29:40,610 --> 00:29:36,390
characteristics such as perhaps laziness

708
00:29:43,410 --> 00:29:40,620
perhaps of physical defects such as

709
00:29:47,190 --> 00:29:43,420
blindness for deafness

710
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:47,200
should never be reproduced and so the

711
00:29:53,700 --> 00:29:50,170
movement started out very slowly in the

712
00:29:57,060 --> 00:29:53,710
United States and gained momentum and a

713
00:29:59,940 --> 00:29:57,070
lot of political support and funding

714
00:30:02,370 --> 00:29:59,950
from the Carnegie Foundation among

715
00:30:04,500 --> 00:30:02,380
others this it was sort of an insidious

716
00:30:09,290 --> 00:30:04,510
movement that sounded good in the

717
00:30:11,130 --> 00:30:09,300
beginning but grew in a very nefarious

718
00:30:15,390 --> 00:30:11,140
kind of way

719
00:30:18,090 --> 00:30:15,400
where families were asked to give all of

720
00:30:20,850 --> 00:30:18,100
their family backgrounds their family

721
00:30:24,810 --> 00:30:20,860
trees they were wage they were measured

722
00:30:28,140 --> 00:30:24,820
they were checked for physical defects

723
00:30:30,930 --> 00:30:28,150
or illness or even whether or not they

724
00:30:34,350 --> 00:30:30,940
wore glasses if they were overweight how

725
00:30:37,260 --> 00:30:34,360
physically fit they were and charts were

726
00:30:40,770 --> 00:30:37,270
drawn up and the goal was to have a

727
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:40,780
chart on every family in America there

728
00:30:46,460 --> 00:30:43,450
were county fairs that were held and

729
00:30:50,850 --> 00:30:46,470
people families were encouraged to

730
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:50,860
compete in these county fairs for having

731
00:30:54,090 --> 00:30:52,210
the fittest family

732
00:30:56,250 --> 00:30:54,100
and there were also fittest baby

733
00:31:02,250 --> 00:30:56,260
contests that came out of this as well

734
00:31:05,850 --> 00:31:02,260
and the thing is that the characteristic

735
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:05,860
of the fittest family were those who

736
00:31:11,850 --> 00:31:08,770
were the tallest were those who are most

737
00:31:14,060 --> 00:31:11,860
the most socially productive for those

738
00:31:17,910 --> 00:31:14,070
who are not the most financially

739
00:31:21,450 --> 00:31:17,920
productive so we didn't really look at

740
00:31:26,340 --> 00:31:21,460
the genetic makeup so to speak of the

741
00:31:29,970 --> 00:31:26,350
family but applied our own social values

742
00:31:31,980 --> 00:31:29,980
upon people in the United States and the

743
00:31:33,140 --> 00:31:31,990
started this movement started to spread

744
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:33,150
around the world

745
00:31:40,620 --> 00:31:38,050
what happened eventually is that people

746
00:31:43,850 --> 00:31:40,630
who are mentally in the United

747
00:31:46,740 --> 00:31:43,860
States ended up having to undergo forced

748
00:31:49,260 --> 00:31:46,750
sterilization but it wasn't just the

749
00:31:53,610 --> 00:31:49,270
mentally there was a category

750
00:31:56,100 --> 00:31:53,620
called feeble-minded and anyone could

751
00:32:00,110 --> 00:31:56,110
fit into that category if they were

752
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:00,120
placed there by one of Harry Laughlin

753
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:03,130
social workers and Harry Laughlin was

754
00:32:10,380 --> 00:32:06,490
really the brainchild behind this whole

755
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:10,390
idea when a social worker identified a

756
00:32:17,190 --> 00:32:13,570
person as being feeble-minded it could

757
00:32:20,210 --> 00:32:17,200
be that they were actually alcoholic or

758
00:32:23,130 --> 00:32:20,220
there actually had a history of

759
00:32:26,220 --> 00:32:23,140
prostitution or they were unwed mothers

760
00:32:30,270 --> 00:32:26,230
there were a number of different things

761
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:30,280
epileptics for example were subjected to

762
00:32:36,900 --> 00:32:33,850
forced sterilization in the end

763
00:32:40,410 --> 00:32:36,910
and the results of this sort of

764
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:40,420
nefarious turn in the eugenics movement

765
00:32:47,310 --> 00:32:44,770
in America so it ended up being not a

766
00:32:50,490 --> 00:32:47,320
good thing for this country in the long

767
00:32:53,610 --> 00:32:50,500
run but the worst thing I think that

768
00:32:57,570 --> 00:32:53,620
happened was that it was carried to

769
00:33:00,780 --> 00:32:57,580
Germany and the American New Genesis

770
00:33:05,940 --> 00:33:00,790
were complaining that the Germans were

771
00:33:09,030 --> 00:33:05,950
beating us at our own game and they the

772
00:33:13,820 --> 00:33:09,040
Carnegie Association funds were being

773
00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:13,830
used in order to fund Joseph Mengele

774
00:33:20,370 --> 00:33:17,290
experiments in Germany and of course

775
00:33:23,010 --> 00:33:20,380
Germany carried it a lot further than it

776
00:33:27,660 --> 00:33:23,020
was carried in the United States but

777
00:33:30,570 --> 00:33:27,670
those plans were on the plan the master

778
00:33:32,700 --> 00:33:30,580
plan for the eugenics movement in the

779
00:33:35,910 --> 00:33:32,710
United States they simply weren't

780
00:33:39,980 --> 00:33:35,920
carried out even to the point of using

781
00:33:45,090 --> 00:33:39,990
gas canisters in order to exterminate

782
00:33:47,610 --> 00:33:45,100
undesirable so what happened was the war

783
00:33:51,170 --> 00:33:47,620
in Germany became very unpopular people

784
00:33:54,330 --> 00:33:51,180
realized what was happening and the

785
00:33:58,800 --> 00:33:54,340
eugenics movement in America lost its

786
00:34:02,010 --> 00:33:58,810
appeal but not until a great deal of

787
00:34:04,490 --> 00:34:02,020
evildoing was done in this country yeah

788
00:34:07,170 --> 00:34:04,500
I think a lot of people are probably

789
00:34:09,150 --> 00:34:07,180
certainly I think most people would be

790
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:09,160
or should be aware of the eugenics

791
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:11,290
experiments that the Nazis conducted

792
00:34:16,350 --> 00:34:13,330
prior to and during the Second World War

793
00:34:17,700 --> 00:34:16,360
but I don't think and I think I don't

794
00:34:20,610 --> 00:34:17,710
think a lot of people would be aware

795
00:34:22,980 --> 00:34:20,620
that those kinds of experiments though

796
00:34:24,750 --> 00:34:22,990
those kinds of policies certainly not

797
00:34:27,690 --> 00:34:24,760
taken to the extreme that the Nazis did

798
00:34:30,030 --> 00:34:27,700
but were present in just about every

799
00:34:32,370 --> 00:34:30,040
Western country including Canada where

800
00:34:35,580 --> 00:34:32,380
two provinces in Canada British Columbia

801
00:34:37,140 --> 00:34:35,590
and Alberta had eugenics programs in

802
00:34:39,540 --> 00:34:37,150
British Columbia was called the sexual

803
00:34:42,720 --> 00:34:39,550
sterilization Act which was actually on

804
00:34:44,700 --> 00:34:42,730
the books until 1972 twenty-five years

805
00:34:45,260 --> 00:34:44,710
or so after the end of the Second World

806
00:34:46,790 --> 00:34:45,270
War

807
00:34:50,090 --> 00:34:46,800
one of the things you talk about

808
00:34:51,470 --> 00:34:50,100
Kathleen in terms of other groups sort

809
00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:51,480
of alcoholics and those kinds of things

810
00:34:57,290 --> 00:34:54,330
was also in the United States in Canada

811
00:34:59,330 --> 00:34:57,300
particularly targeted towards immigrants

812
00:35:01,400 --> 00:34:59,340
because we people would when people

813
00:35:03,290 --> 00:35:01,410
would come into the country of course it

814
00:35:04,670 --> 00:35:03,300
was at least some people and I agree

815
00:35:07,670 --> 00:35:04,680
with this have speculated that it was

816
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:07,680
used as a way of targeting immigrants

817
00:35:11,870 --> 00:35:09,210
and saying well look you if we give you

818
00:35:13,310 --> 00:35:11,880
these standardized tests you will fail

819
00:35:15,050 --> 00:35:13,320
because your comprehension of the

820
00:35:16,910 --> 00:35:15,060
language that's required to take the

821
00:35:18,590 --> 00:35:16,920
test and then we will put you in this

822
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:18,600
category and put you in the forced

823
00:35:23,390 --> 00:35:21,330
sterilization program and when you see

824
00:35:24,410 --> 00:35:23,400
all of that happening here's a question

825
00:35:26,240 --> 00:35:24,420
for you Kathleen

826
00:35:29,030 --> 00:35:26,250
and you fast-forward 60 years later

827
00:35:31,430 --> 00:35:29,040
where you have massive battles about

828
00:35:34,580 --> 00:35:31,440
immigration in the United States the

829
00:35:35,930 --> 00:35:34,590
stuff going on now in Arizona is I mean

830
00:35:37,910 --> 00:35:35,940
they were talking about you know whether

831
00:35:40,070 --> 00:35:37,920
they were actually gonna play basketball

832
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:40,080
games there with the NBA should move the

833
00:35:43,820 --> 00:35:42,090
games to protest what was going on in

834
00:35:45,830 --> 00:35:43,830
Arizona one of the other things that was

835
00:35:48,109 --> 00:35:45,840
linked to the eugenics movement was the

836
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:48,119
idea that you wanted to relieve the

837
00:35:53,060 --> 00:35:51,330
social safety net burden on sort of

838
00:35:55,220 --> 00:35:53,070
impoverished people and the under print

839
00:35:56,870 --> 00:35:55,230
on the underprivileged by weeding them

840
00:35:58,520 --> 00:35:56,880
out of the population so I think it was

841
00:36:00,290 --> 00:35:58,530
very much tied into the depression and

842
00:36:04,099 --> 00:36:00,300
now we're seeing we're going through an

843
00:36:05,599 --> 00:36:04,109
era of economic difficulties certainly

844
00:36:07,310 --> 00:36:05,609
not a Great Depression but obviously

845
00:36:10,430 --> 00:36:07,320
perhaps the worst recession we've seen

846
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:10,440
in a couple of decades and then you tie

847
00:36:15,410 --> 00:36:12,810
in to the fact that our technology now

848
00:36:16,700 --> 00:36:15,420
is so much more advanced than what they

849
00:36:18,650 --> 00:36:16,710
were dealing with the things that we're

850
00:36:20,090 --> 00:36:18,660
capable of doing now are things that

851
00:36:22,940 --> 00:36:20,100
those guys could only have dreamed of

852
00:36:24,380 --> 00:36:22,950
6070 years ago and now we've got people

853
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:24,390
who are actually talking about creating

854
00:36:29,870 --> 00:36:28,050
designer babies that you can program in

855
00:36:32,330 --> 00:36:29,880
to children the traits that you want and

856
00:36:35,630 --> 00:36:32,340
the flipside of that is you can program

857
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:35,640
out the traits that you don't want what

858
00:36:40,310 --> 00:36:38,850
do you think that says Kathleen about

859
00:36:42,530 --> 00:36:40,320
our modern society where we might be

860
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:42,540
going are there dangers inherent in a

861
00:36:47,240 --> 00:36:44,490
lot of this genetic research that we're

862
00:36:49,370 --> 00:36:47,250
doing now and should we be pausing to

863
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:49,380
have perhaps a conversation where we we

864
00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:51,570
remind ourselves of the dangers of

865
00:36:56,359 --> 00:36:53,850
eugenics and the eugenics movement from

866
00:36:58,490 --> 00:36:56,369
60 or 70 years ago that's a very good

867
00:37:02,510 --> 00:36:58,500
point Paul and I'm glad that you brought

868
00:37:06,670 --> 00:37:02,520
that up it is true that we we have to be

869
00:37:10,910 --> 00:37:06,680
concerned about what is going on today

870
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:10,920
with immigrants it brings back memories

871
00:37:17,690 --> 00:37:14,370
of the earlier immigration during the

872
00:37:20,150 --> 00:37:17,700
20th century where IQ exams were

873
00:37:22,910 --> 00:37:20,160
administered to the new immigrants

874
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:22,920
wanting to come to the United States or

875
00:37:29,060 --> 00:37:25,290
hoping hoping to get into this country

876
00:37:31,130 --> 00:37:29,070
and the IQ tests were in English

877
00:37:33,860 --> 00:37:31,140
although they didn't speak English and

878
00:37:36,860 --> 00:37:33,870
even if they did understand what was

879
00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:36,870
being said in the IQ test they were

880
00:37:41,450 --> 00:37:39,330
being asked questions about the leading

881
00:37:44,990 --> 00:37:41,460
colleges in the United States and

882
00:37:48,190 --> 00:37:45,000
questions about the color of certain

883
00:37:51,500 --> 00:37:48,200
gemstones so you can see that it was

884
00:37:54,110 --> 00:37:51,510
culturally biased to begin with and this

885
00:37:56,690 --> 00:37:54,120
cultural bias is something that we need

886
00:37:59,300 --> 00:37:56,700
to be aware of if we forget our history

887
00:38:01,430 --> 00:37:59,310
we're doomed to repeat it and I think

888
00:38:04,820 --> 00:38:01,440
that that's one very important point

889
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:04,830
that I was trying to make in my chapter

890
00:38:11,090 --> 00:38:08,130
about the eugenics movement is that it's

891
00:38:15,620 --> 00:38:11,100
extremely important for us to consider

892
00:38:18,260 --> 00:38:15,630
our past history certainly that's the

893
00:38:21,650 --> 00:38:18,270
the genetic the new genetics movement

894
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:21,660
could repeat the sort of thing that the

895
00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:25,770
eugenics movement did back in earlier in

896
00:38:32,030 --> 00:38:29,370
the 20th century and I don't know I

897
00:38:34,430 --> 00:38:32,040
don't know if it's desirable it depends

898
00:38:36,950 --> 00:38:34,440
upon what you're cutting out I guess and

899
00:38:41,450 --> 00:38:36,960
and whether or not it would be desirable

900
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:41,460
if we could eliminate diabetes for

901
00:38:46,460 --> 00:38:43,890
example that might be a good thing but

902
00:38:50,750 --> 00:38:46,470
it might be better to be able to alter

903
00:38:54,710 --> 00:38:50,760
the genetic code a little bit than not

904
00:38:57,250 --> 00:38:54,720
to use the genetic material to produce a

905
00:39:01,670 --> 00:38:57,260
human being we certainly wouldn't want

906
00:39:04,700 --> 00:39:01,680
to produce a society where everyone was

907
00:39:05,630 --> 00:39:04,710
the same or everyone had certain traits

908
00:39:07,789 --> 00:39:05,640
you know

909
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:07,799
I wanted to ask a question what is kind

910
00:39:12,049 --> 00:39:09,690
of implicit in what you say here if

911
00:39:14,450 --> 00:39:12,059
we're doing genetic experimentation

912
00:39:16,549 --> 00:39:14,460
you know we're becoming dr. Frankenstein

913
00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:16,559
we're trying to manipulate things and

914
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:19,650
maybe create artificial life even but

915
00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:21,690
the point being that we could also make

916
00:39:26,210 --> 00:39:24,210
some really hideous mistakes along the

917
00:39:28,130 --> 00:39:26,220
way because we're groping in the dark

918
00:39:30,410 --> 00:39:28,140
about things we don't fully understand

919
00:39:33,609 --> 00:39:30,420
isn't there also the danger that we

920
00:39:37,099 --> 00:39:33,619
could screw things up rather badly yes

921
00:39:41,660 --> 00:39:37,109
with you that there definitely is a

922
00:39:45,309 --> 00:39:41,670
danger in that and you know it brings to

923
00:39:49,970 --> 00:39:45,319
me the example of genetic modification

924
00:39:52,730 --> 00:39:49,980
in plants and that once the seeds are

925
00:39:56,059 --> 00:39:52,740
genetically modified if something goes

926
00:39:57,890 --> 00:39:56,069
wrong then we can't go back and that's

927
00:39:59,450 --> 00:39:57,900
pretty scary when you think about it

928
00:40:02,359 --> 00:39:59,460
there's two aspects to it that

929
00:40:03,950 --> 00:40:02,369
particularly worry me much to the

930
00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:03,960
chagrin of some of the pear cast

931
00:40:08,299 --> 00:40:05,970
listeners I'm sure from a Marxist

932
00:40:10,490 --> 00:40:08,309
perspective but one of them would be

933
00:40:12,410 --> 00:40:10,500
intellectual property rights and you

934
00:40:14,539 --> 00:40:12,420
mentioned genetic modification of foods

935
00:40:17,930 --> 00:40:14,549
and we've seen a whole raft of court

936
00:40:19,819 --> 00:40:17,940
cases where companies like Monsanto are

937
00:40:22,190 --> 00:40:19,829
claiming intellectual property rights on

938
00:40:24,289 --> 00:40:22,200
biological material some very famous

939
00:40:25,670 --> 00:40:24,299
cases in Canada for instance where

940
00:40:27,589 --> 00:40:25,680
they've tried to where they have

941
00:40:31,430 --> 00:40:27,599
basically said those seeds are our seeds

942
00:40:33,049 --> 00:40:31,440
you can only we can control them and so

943
00:40:35,329 --> 00:40:33,059
one wonders whether the same sort of

944
00:40:37,930 --> 00:40:35,339
thing could be true could be argued for

945
00:40:39,769 --> 00:40:37,940
human genetic material so that

946
00:40:41,900 --> 00:40:39,779
corporations would be making the

947
00:40:44,150 --> 00:40:41,910
argument that they would own and control

948
00:40:46,309 --> 00:40:44,160
for lack of a better phrase a piece of

949
00:40:47,870 --> 00:40:46,319
you which is not something that I am in

950
00:40:50,870 --> 00:40:47,880
favor of and I would hope none of us are

951
00:40:53,569 --> 00:40:50,880
but to me more importantly the question

952
00:40:57,349 --> 00:40:53,579
who could afford this so if you could

953
00:41:00,499 --> 00:40:57,359
come Cathi forward and say we can cure

954
00:41:02,359 --> 00:41:00,509
diabetes if not in you today we can make

955
00:41:04,220 --> 00:41:02,369
sure that your children don't have it we

956
00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:04,230
can just take that out and we would all

957
00:41:08,299 --> 00:41:05,490
agree okay well maybe that's a good

958
00:41:09,710 --> 00:41:08,309
thing but who's gonna pay for that who's

959
00:41:11,990 --> 00:41:09,720
going to be able to afford it and the

960
00:41:14,029 --> 00:41:12,000
danger that I the real danger that I see

961
00:41:16,220 --> 00:41:14,039
here is as you bring what seems like

962
00:41:17,950 --> 00:41:16,230
very good and innocent things forward

963
00:41:21,010 --> 00:41:17,960
you're looking at the farthest rat

964
00:41:23,130 --> 00:41:21,020
of our society into a group of haves who

965
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:23,140
can afford it and into a larger

966
00:41:28,089 --> 00:41:25,130
ever-increasing group of have-nots ooh

967
00:41:30,670 --> 00:41:28,099
Ken and to use a little sci-fi analogy

968
00:41:32,170 --> 00:41:30,680
eventually you might wind up with a sort

969
00:41:34,390 --> 00:41:32,180
of time machine Society where you have

970
00:41:36,099 --> 00:41:34,400
the Morlocks in the Eloi the uber

971
00:41:37,359 --> 00:41:36,109
advanced you know where all the bad

972
00:41:39,790 --> 00:41:37,369
stuff has been taken out of this

973
00:41:41,770 --> 00:41:39,800
minority ruling caste and everybody else

974
00:41:43,329 --> 00:41:41,780
is left to become worker drugs and I

975
00:41:44,710 --> 00:41:43,339
know it sounds like science fiction but

976
00:41:46,720 --> 00:41:44,720
whenever you read anything about

977
00:41:48,849 --> 00:41:46,730
eugenics and mirror to what's happening

978
00:41:50,380 --> 00:41:48,859
now you sort of say well maybe science

979
00:41:52,210 --> 00:41:50,390
fiction is not that far from becoming

980
00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:52,220
science fact you've made a very good

981
00:41:59,470 --> 00:41:56,810
point Paul and we do face that danger if

982
00:42:04,359 --> 00:41:59,480
you go back to the eugenics movement it

983
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:04,369
was the the upper socio-economic strata

984
00:42:11,530 --> 00:42:08,570
of society that who actually controls

985
00:42:15,250 --> 00:42:11,540
the eugenics movement and who wanted to

986
00:42:19,270 --> 00:42:15,260
propagate people like themselves and

987
00:42:23,050 --> 00:42:19,280
eliminate people on the lower strata of

988
00:42:25,750 --> 00:42:23,060
society and we are in danger of having

989
00:42:31,450 --> 00:42:25,760
the same thing occur again particularly

990
00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:31,460
if gene etics material is being paid for

991
00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:35,210
and only a certain segment of society

992
00:42:41,230 --> 00:42:37,970
can afford this there's another problem

993
00:42:44,170 --> 00:42:41,240
here too and that is that we often find

994
00:42:48,250 --> 00:42:44,180
that there are column side-effects if

995
00:42:49,510 --> 00:42:48,260
you will unexpected consequences you

996
00:42:51,700 --> 00:42:49,520
know there a lot of drugs that cure

997
00:42:53,410 --> 00:42:51,710
diseases well the only problem is when

998
00:42:57,220 --> 00:42:53,420
they cure the disease they also cause

999
00:43:00,040 --> 00:42:57,230
certain bad things to happen and so we

1000
00:43:03,460 --> 00:43:00,050
need to be really careful about this

1001
00:43:05,099 --> 00:43:03,470
this quote engineering of people kind of

1002
00:43:07,060 --> 00:43:05,109
things and you know the whole

1003
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:07,070
socio-economic stuff if you look at the

1004
00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:08,690
immigrant so came the United States

1005
00:43:14,650 --> 00:43:11,450
little over a hundred years ago poor

1006
00:43:17,740 --> 00:43:14,660
people from Russia from Eastern Europe

1007
00:43:19,690 --> 00:43:17,750
from Italy from other places a lot of

1008
00:43:23,650 --> 00:43:19,700
Nobel Prize winners that came out of

1009
00:43:26,140 --> 00:43:23,660
that society movement if you will it was

1010
00:43:28,240 --> 00:43:26,150
more than how much money they had how

1011
00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:28,250
successfully had been at this that or

1012
00:43:31,580 --> 00:43:29,370
the other thing

1013
00:43:35,390 --> 00:43:31,590
there was more going on brain power if

1014
00:43:39,950 --> 00:43:35,400
you will and we constantly find whether

1015
00:43:42,710 --> 00:43:39,960
it's athletes or Nobel Prize winners one

1016
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:42,720
explained to the other if you will that

1017
00:43:47,300 --> 00:43:45,210
he picked the unexpected somebody whose

1018
00:43:49,190 --> 00:43:47,310
background would tell you never got to

1019
00:43:51,050 --> 00:43:49,200
be a success and it turns out they're

1020
00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:51,060
extraordinarily successful we don't

1021
00:43:56,960 --> 00:43:54,330
fully understand what's going on with

1022
00:43:58,790 --> 00:43:56,970
people I'm just going around with anyway

1023
00:44:00,800 --> 00:43:58,800
which is a very important point stand

1024
00:44:03,050 --> 00:44:00,810
because of course I'm descended from

1025
00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:03,060
peasants from Eastern Europe and look

1026
00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:04,530
what happened to me but that might be

1027
00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:06,890
something that's debatable

1028
00:44:17,910 --> 00:44:15,030
[Music]

1029
00:44:20,010 --> 00:44:17,920
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1030
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:20,020
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1031
00:44:25,710 --> 00:44:22,570
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1032
00:44:26,820 --> 00:44:25,720
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00:44:29,070 --> 00:44:26,830
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00:44:35,730 --> 00:44:31,750
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00:44:39,270 --> 00:44:35,740
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1037
00:44:42,180 --> 00:44:39,280
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1038
00:44:49,070 --> 00:44:42,190
calm that's one eight hundred seven two

1039
00:44:53,370 --> 00:44:49,080
eight twenty seven thirty or WWF a TEM

1040
00:44:55,230 --> 00:44:53,380
AG calm what are you waiting for your

1041
00:45:05,120 --> 00:44:55,240
fate awaits

1042
00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:08,790
we have Paul Campbell our ethos and Stan

1043
00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:11,650
Friedman and Kathleen Martin they are

1044
00:45:17,310 --> 00:45:15,130
authors collectively of a new book

1045
00:45:19,410 --> 00:45:17,320
called science was wrong

1046
00:45:22,380 --> 00:45:19,420
Starling truths about cures theories and

1047
00:45:24,780 --> 00:45:22,390
inventions they from the collective they

1048
00:45:27,090 --> 00:45:24,790
declared impossible now with so many

1049
00:45:29,610 --> 00:45:27,100
theories in so many areas right for

1050
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:29,620
speculation we can't cover everything we

1051
00:45:33,180 --> 00:45:31,210
can only scratch the surface so maybe

1052
00:45:35,820 --> 00:45:33,190
we'll move from the surface of eugenics

1053
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:35,830
and global warming to a few other areas

1054
00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:38,890
it might be interesting what about space

1055
00:45:43,470 --> 00:45:40,770
travel Stan this has to be your

1056
00:45:46,410 --> 00:45:43,480
expertise here what are the myths about

1057
00:45:48,870 --> 00:45:46,420
space travel and flight that we have to

1058
00:45:50,670 --> 00:45:48,880
overcome I got concerned about things

1059
00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:50,680
like the myths that stand in the way of

1060
00:45:54,810 --> 00:45:52,450
progress I did a weekly science

1061
00:45:56,880 --> 00:45:54,820
commentary for CBC radio here for six

1062
00:45:58,560 --> 00:45:56,890
years and there were all kinds of

1063
00:46:02,250 --> 00:45:58,570
subjects so they gave me plenty of

1064
00:46:04,980 --> 00:46:02,260
leeway found often that claims were

1065
00:46:07,260 --> 00:46:04,990
being made that had no basis even in the

1066
00:46:10,530 --> 00:46:07,270
studies that supposedly produced those

1067
00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:10,540
claims and what I found in especially

1068
00:46:15,660 --> 00:46:12,490
because of the UFO scene remember that

1069
00:46:17,670 --> 00:46:15,670
one of the areas that it's often used as

1070
00:46:20,520 --> 00:46:17,680
an excuse for they can't possibly be

1071
00:46:22,740 --> 00:46:20,530
real if you can't get here from there so

1072
00:46:25,170 --> 00:46:22,750
I got particularly concerned about that

1073
00:46:26,550 --> 00:46:25,180
and was shocked that some of the quotes

1074
00:46:27,579 --> 00:46:26,560
that I found some of them are in the

1075
00:46:30,579 --> 00:46:27,589
book

1076
00:46:33,039 --> 00:46:30,589
resistance to flight at all not from

1077
00:46:33,519 --> 00:46:33,049
some joke dough out on the street John

1078
00:46:36,039 --> 00:46:33,529
Doe

1079
00:46:39,729 --> 00:46:36,049
but people like Simon Newcomb the

1080
00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:39,739
greatest American astronomer of the 19th

1081
00:46:44,679 --> 00:46:42,170
century he was so important when he died

1082
00:46:46,749 --> 00:46:44,689
in like nineteen oh eight or nine this

1083
00:46:49,630 --> 00:46:46,759
funeral was attended by the President of

1084
00:46:51,370 --> 00:46:49,640
the United States mine too and yet two

1085
00:46:55,569 --> 00:46:51,380
months before the Wright brothers first

1086
00:46:58,329 --> 00:46:55,579
flight he pointed out that it's a well

1087
00:47:00,789 --> 00:46:58,339
known fact basically that there's no way

1088
00:47:03,039 --> 00:47:00,799
man will be able to fly in a propelled

1089
00:47:05,679 --> 00:47:03,049
vehicle maybe a balloon kind of thing

1090
00:47:07,599 --> 00:47:05,689
and his word carried a lot of weight the

1091
00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:07,609
problem when people say something is

1092
00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:09,890
impossible is that if they are in

1093
00:47:14,499 --> 00:47:11,930
positions of leadership supposedly

1094
00:47:17,769 --> 00:47:14,509
they're listened to by people who have

1095
00:47:20,259 --> 00:47:17,779
money to invest and should we put any

1096
00:47:22,390 --> 00:47:20,269
money into this crazy business of flight

1097
00:47:23,170 --> 00:47:22,400
well when you got Newcomb saying no

1098
00:47:24,789 --> 00:47:23,180
that's silly

1099
00:47:26,319 --> 00:47:24,799
that statement his statement was made

1100
00:47:29,170 --> 00:47:26,329
two months before the Wright brothers

1101
00:47:31,779 --> 00:47:29,180
first flight at certainly and British

1102
00:47:33,519 --> 00:47:31,789
the head of the well the Royal

1103
00:47:36,579 --> 00:47:33,529
astronomer today is on a royal of

1104
00:47:38,739 --> 00:47:36,589
England on space travel said space

1105
00:47:40,929 --> 00:47:38,749
travel is utter bilge a year before

1106
00:47:44,410 --> 00:47:40,939
Sputnik went up he didn't know anything

1107
00:47:46,449 --> 00:47:44,420
about space travel Goddard the American

1108
00:47:48,759 --> 00:47:46,459
pioneer of space travel who was paid

1109
00:47:51,699 --> 00:47:48,769
attention to by Russians and Germans but

1110
00:47:55,959 --> 00:47:51,709
not by Americans the new york times

1111
00:47:57,429 --> 00:47:55,969
black i'll call say blackballed him he

1112
00:48:00,009 --> 00:47:57,439
didn't know what every american high

1113
00:48:02,439 --> 00:48:00,019
school student is told that a rocket

1114
00:48:05,469 --> 00:48:02,449
can't work in a vacuum because it's

1115
00:48:09,189 --> 00:48:05,479
nothing to react against that was in

1116
00:48:11,199 --> 00:48:09,199
1920 or so and when it's new york times

1117
00:48:14,339 --> 00:48:11,209
and gets bruited about all over the

1118
00:48:16,569 --> 00:48:14,349
place there is strong resistance to

1119
00:48:19,569 --> 00:48:16,579
developments along those lines because

1120
00:48:23,229 --> 00:48:19,579
the voice of authority has spoken and it

1121
00:48:26,109 --> 00:48:23,239
comes up in flight he was wrong

1122
00:48:28,089 --> 00:48:26,119
Goddard was right but he stopped doing

1123
00:48:30,910 --> 00:48:28,099
some of his research he went to of all

1124
00:48:34,029 --> 00:48:30,920
places Roswell New Mexico and did a lot

1125
00:48:35,859 --> 00:48:34,039
of rocket launches there and 20 years

1126
00:48:39,550 --> 00:48:35,869
after his death the government gave him

1127
00:48:41,990 --> 00:48:39,560
a million bucks or so for using office

1128
00:48:44,090 --> 00:48:42,000
and finally he got recognition but

1129
00:48:46,300 --> 00:48:44,100
Wernher von Braun was well aware of them

1130
00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:46,310
the Russians were well aware of his work

1131
00:48:54,560 --> 00:48:50,130
in England Frank Whittle got a patent on

1132
00:48:56,000 --> 00:48:54,570
a jet engine in 1930 and the Brits were

1133
00:48:59,990 --> 00:48:56,010
not interested

1134
00:49:02,270 --> 00:49:00,000
a German Bono hain who later worked for

1135
00:49:05,330 --> 00:49:02,280
the United States after the war I got a

1136
00:49:08,300 --> 00:49:05,340
patent in 1936 on a jet engine six years

1137
00:49:10,850 --> 00:49:08,310
later and yet the Germans built the

1138
00:49:13,190 --> 00:49:10,860
first jet engine the planes powered by

1139
00:49:15,170 --> 00:49:13,200
jet engines if the British had followed

1140
00:49:18,140 --> 00:49:15,180
up when they had the opportunity to be

1141
00:49:20,240 --> 00:49:18,150
first I the whole Battle of Britain

1142
00:49:22,430 --> 00:49:20,250
might have been different conversely you

1143
00:49:25,010 --> 00:49:22,440
can say that if Hitler had been a little

1144
00:49:26,330 --> 00:49:25,020
more interested in atomic power the

1145
00:49:29,390 --> 00:49:26,340
entire war might have been a little

1146
00:49:32,720 --> 00:49:29,400
different as opposed to well yeah there

1147
00:49:34,430 --> 00:49:32,730
are a number of these points of you know

1148
00:49:37,070 --> 00:49:34,440
which way do we go left or right the one

1149
00:49:39,140 --> 00:49:37,080
one of the things that makes and this

1150
00:49:41,060 --> 00:49:39,150
gets involved in all of these Science

1151
00:49:43,580 --> 00:49:41,070
and Technology arguments really is that

1152
00:49:45,140 --> 00:49:43,590
one of the things that makes you more

1153
00:49:47,390 --> 00:49:45,150
sure that what you're trying to

1154
00:49:48,830 --> 00:49:47,400
accomplish can be accomplished is

1155
00:49:51,860 --> 00:49:48,840
knowing that somebody else has already

1156
00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:51,870
done it now Hitler didn't know that you

1157
00:49:58,700 --> 00:49:54,210
could build an atomic bomb during a war

1158
00:50:01,070 --> 00:49:58,710
anyway and the Russians knew after the

1159
00:50:03,650 --> 00:50:01,080
war that you could the United States had

1160
00:50:05,750 --> 00:50:03,660
said about five of them so they

1161
00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:05,760
persisted and they built theirs eight

1162
00:50:09,560 --> 00:50:07,770
years before it was thought they would

1163
00:50:12,860 --> 00:50:09,570
be able to do that which is a rather

1164
00:50:14,450 --> 00:50:12,870
scary thought this has to do with our

1165
00:50:17,060 --> 00:50:14,460
perception you know we live in a free

1166
00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:17,070
society and those were evil communists

1167
00:50:20,330 --> 00:50:18,450
and they don't have our organizational

1168
00:50:22,730 --> 00:50:20,340
structure and all the rest of it Hitler

1169
00:50:25,640 --> 00:50:22,740
knew you could build rockets but and

1170
00:50:27,470 --> 00:50:25,650
hopefully in time to end the war you

1171
00:50:29,420 --> 00:50:27,480
know to use them before the war was over

1172
00:50:32,300 --> 00:50:29,430
and so he spent a lot of money on

1173
00:50:34,310 --> 00:50:32,310
rockets and they worked the v1 v2 and

1174
00:50:37,190 --> 00:50:34,320
there would have been more as time went

1175
00:50:38,810 --> 00:50:37,200
on we often don't give enough credit and

1176
00:50:41,030 --> 00:50:38,820
Paul I'm sure you heard this when you

1177
00:50:43,820 --> 00:50:41,040
were in England but breaking the code of

1178
00:50:46,490 --> 00:50:43,830
the German codes was the key thing not

1179
00:50:49,490 --> 00:50:46,500
our technology knowing what your enemy

1180
00:50:51,470 --> 00:50:49,500
can do and we didn't advertise that you

1181
00:50:54,020 --> 00:50:51,480
know it's one of those examples of

1182
00:50:56,120 --> 00:50:54,030
keeping secrets another one of the

1183
00:50:58,520 --> 00:50:56,130
attacks on UFOs you can't keep secrets

1184
00:51:02,780 --> 00:50:58,530
they broke the codes there wasn't a word

1185
00:51:04,790 --> 00:51:02,790
for 25 years after the war we had broken

1186
00:51:06,530 --> 00:51:04,800
the codes one of the reasons is that

1187
00:51:08,359 --> 00:51:06,540
some other countries were still using

1188
00:51:12,700 --> 00:51:08,369
that German technology and we were

1189
00:51:14,900 --> 00:51:12,710
listening to their conversations as well

1190
00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:14,910
technology wasn't given enough credit

1191
00:51:20,720 --> 00:51:18,210
for many many years let me ask you this

1192
00:51:23,330 --> 00:51:20,730
question Stan and Cathy then is it that

1193
00:51:25,370 --> 00:51:23,340
science to partner here is it that

1194
00:51:27,020 --> 00:51:25,380
science is wrong although that's a

1195
00:51:32,510 --> 00:51:27,030
catchy title for a book I'll grant you

1196
00:51:34,490 --> 00:51:32,520
or is it well I I might have said some

1197
00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:34,500
scientists at some points in history

1198
00:51:38,270 --> 00:51:36,930
have either made mistakes or made poor

1199
00:51:39,770 --> 00:51:38,280
predictions but that's a very long title

1200
00:51:41,480 --> 00:51:39,780
for a book you couldn't use that one is

1201
00:51:44,090 --> 00:51:41,490
it that science is wrong or some

1202
00:51:46,040 --> 00:51:44,100
sometimes scientists have been wrong

1203
00:51:49,970 --> 00:51:46,050
particularly maybe when they step

1204
00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:49,980
outside their areas of expertise one and

1205
00:51:56,990 --> 00:51:53,010
two is it perhaps that maybe science

1206
00:51:58,640 --> 00:51:57,000
isn't always wrong but non scientists

1207
00:51:59,990 --> 00:51:58,650
who have the ultimate say about how

1208
00:52:02,290 --> 00:52:00,000
you're going to use that scientific

1209
00:52:04,940 --> 00:52:02,300
knowledge company the wrong choices and

1210
00:52:06,710 --> 00:52:04,950
the example I would take from my own

1211
00:52:08,930 --> 00:52:06,720
studies for instance would be Hitler

1212
00:52:11,780 --> 00:52:08,940
with atomic energy where if you read

1213
00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:11,790
anybody Albert's fear anybody's memoirs

1214
00:52:15,620 --> 00:52:13,410
from that period of time they said lucky

1215
00:52:17,150 --> 00:52:15,630
he just had no interest in it couldn't

1216
00:52:18,320 --> 00:52:17,160
comprehend it had no interest in it was

1217
00:52:21,200 --> 00:52:18,330
more interested in these other things

1218
00:52:23,570 --> 00:52:21,210
even with the jet engine when the

1219
00:52:25,030 --> 00:52:23,580
Luftwaffe and the engineers came to him

1220
00:52:28,340 --> 00:52:25,040
said we should be building fighters

1221
00:52:29,690 --> 00:52:28,350
Hitler wanted to build bombers he made a

1222
00:52:32,090 --> 00:52:29,700
political decision to take the

1223
00:52:33,920 --> 00:52:32,100
technology and build the wrong kind of

1224
00:52:35,540 --> 00:52:33,930
airplane at that point in the war

1225
00:52:37,700 --> 00:52:35,550
because he wanted to go bomb London and

1226
00:52:39,440 --> 00:52:37,710
he couldn't see that what they really

1227
00:52:40,940 --> 00:52:39,450
needed were fighters so sort of a

1228
00:52:43,010 --> 00:52:40,950
two-parter there is it that science is

1229
00:52:44,660 --> 00:52:43,020
wrong or is it that scientists are wrong

1230
00:52:46,310 --> 00:52:44,670
and those are two different things and

1231
00:52:48,590 --> 00:52:46,320
that even when scientists are right

1232
00:52:51,050 --> 00:52:48,600
sometimes their political masters are

1233
00:52:52,970 --> 00:52:51,060
wrong well those things are true the

1234
00:52:55,190 --> 00:52:52,980
original title of the book to give you a

1235
00:52:58,520 --> 00:52:55,200
better perspective on that was it's

1236
00:53:01,160 --> 00:52:58,530
impossible isn't it see now that's a

1237
00:53:02,780 --> 00:53:01,170
chemistry well we thought so too but the

1238
00:53:04,680 --> 00:53:02,790
publisher has the right according to our

1239
00:53:06,270 --> 00:53:04,690
contract to change the title

1240
00:53:09,089 --> 00:53:06,280
and I think it was done for political

1241
00:53:11,490 --> 00:53:09,099
reasons too if you will my own thought

1242
00:53:13,500 --> 00:53:11,500
is that since the same publisher was

1243
00:53:15,630 --> 00:53:13,510
putting out Erich von Daniken's history

1244
00:53:18,029 --> 00:53:15,640
is wrong which I enjoyed reading

1245
00:53:20,099 --> 00:53:18,039
incidentally that this would go along

1246
00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:20,109
that same trend you know we got a family

1247
00:53:26,970 --> 00:53:25,450
of wrongness you will know it it's a

1248
00:53:28,680 --> 00:53:26,980
complicated question because you're

1249
00:53:31,049 --> 00:53:28,690
right it's not just what scientists

1250
00:53:32,849 --> 00:53:31,059
science doesn't have a voice there are

1251
00:53:35,069 --> 00:53:32,859
scientists who speak and there are

1252
00:53:37,529 --> 00:53:35,079
politicians who sometimes control what

1253
00:53:39,660 --> 00:53:37,539
the scientists say and do but I control

1254
00:53:41,579 --> 00:53:39,670
in the pocketbook and you know the thing

1255
00:53:45,359 --> 00:53:41,589
about the atomic bomb it's hard to

1256
00:53:47,960 --> 00:53:45,369
imagine but we spent two billion dollars

1257
00:53:50,970 --> 00:53:47,970
nineteen forty two dollars mind you

1258
00:53:54,150 --> 00:53:50,980
developing the atomic bomb now that was

1259
00:53:57,620 --> 00:53:54,160
an incredible about a amount of money so

1260
00:54:00,059 --> 00:53:57,630
Hitler may have had how shall I put this

1261
00:54:02,609 --> 00:54:00,069
political considerations where the heck

1262
00:54:05,180 --> 00:54:02,619
is he gonna get all the money the effort

1263
00:54:08,010 --> 00:54:05,190
to put into this that would be required

1264
00:54:09,450 --> 00:54:08,020
many Americans have no idea that you

1265
00:54:11,339 --> 00:54:09,460
know all I'm the time I finally get a

1266
00:54:13,740 --> 00:54:11,349
bunch of nuclear guys together and they

1267
00:54:15,359 --> 00:54:13,750
anybody can build a bomb well the

1268
00:54:18,210 --> 00:54:15,369
Oakridge plant where they were producing

1269
00:54:20,250 --> 00:54:18,220
u-235 is a mile long and used more than

1270
00:54:23,279 --> 00:54:20,260
five percent of the electrical power in

1271
00:54:25,470 --> 00:54:23,289
the United States when it was being

1272
00:54:27,809 --> 00:54:25,480
operated to produce u-235

1273
00:54:28,920 --> 00:54:27,819
that's a tremendous amount of effort we

1274
00:54:30,480 --> 00:54:28,930
wasn't being bombed

1275
00:54:32,220 --> 00:54:30,490
you know said we didn't need also we

1276
00:54:35,760 --> 00:54:32,230
didn't worry about somebody else getting

1277
00:54:37,920 --> 00:54:35,770
in the way of doing these things and let

1278
00:54:38,640 --> 00:54:37,930
me throw in one aspect of secrecy about

1279
00:54:41,789 --> 00:54:38,650
that

1280
00:54:43,920 --> 00:54:41,799
President Truman as Vice President

1281
00:54:46,410 --> 00:54:43,930
Truman did not know about the Manhattan

1282
00:54:48,990 --> 00:54:46,420
Project to develop the atomic bomb

1283
00:54:52,109 --> 00:54:49,000
he wasn't informed until two weeks or so

1284
00:54:53,460 --> 00:54:52,119
after Roosevelt died that talk about

1285
00:54:57,059 --> 00:54:53,470
keeping secrets he'd been a leading

1286
00:54:58,799 --> 00:54:57,069
senator before that nobody submitting to

1287
00:55:01,710 --> 00:54:58,809
be fair he had only been vice president

1288
00:55:09,870 --> 00:55:01,720
for a few months so Roosevelt was busy

1289
00:55:11,309 --> 00:55:09,880
trying to defeat the axis so it wasn't

1290
00:55:12,930 --> 00:55:11,319
the only thing Truman wasn't told Truman

1291
00:55:15,120 --> 00:55:12,940
came in wolf Lee unprepared because

1292
00:55:16,160 --> 00:55:15,130
Roosevelt didn't share information with

1293
00:55:19,490 --> 00:55:16,170
anybody that

1294
00:55:21,319 --> 00:55:19,500
true it was kept secret is the point yes

1295
00:55:23,240 --> 00:55:21,329
even though he was at that high level

1296
00:55:24,890 --> 00:55:23,250
I've had people say well of course he

1297
00:55:28,280 --> 00:55:24,900
knew he was vice-president wasn't he

1298
00:55:30,859 --> 00:55:28,290
well he did also in those days stand

1299
00:55:33,770 --> 00:55:30,869
isn't it also true vice-president were

1300
00:55:36,049 --> 00:55:33,780
not necessarily given the same level of

1301
00:55:38,210 --> 00:55:36,059
respect as they are now that were kind

1302
00:55:41,359 --> 00:55:38,220
of tossed away in an office somewhere

1303
00:55:43,190 --> 00:55:41,369
and we didn't pay attention unless or

1304
00:55:45,440 --> 00:55:43,200
until they had to become president

1305
00:55:48,170 --> 00:55:45,450
that's true and that hadn't happened for

1306
00:55:49,430 --> 00:55:48,180
several years before that I think it was

1307
00:55:51,319 --> 00:55:49,440
one of Roosevelt's earlier vice

1308
00:55:53,359 --> 00:55:51,329
presidents I think was John Nance Garner

1309
00:55:55,940 --> 00:55:53,369
said the vice presidency wasn't worth a

1310
00:55:58,250 --> 00:55:55,950
bucket of warm spit so I don't think he

1311
00:56:00,559 --> 00:55:58,260
minded too much not continuing on in the

1312
00:56:02,780 --> 00:56:00,569
job let me ask you this question Stan in

1313
00:56:05,150 --> 00:56:02,790
terms of political priorities here's one

1314
00:56:07,520 --> 00:56:05,160
for you should we be on Mars by now you

1315
00:56:10,370 --> 00:56:07,530
worked on nuclear rockets 40 some-odd

1316
00:56:12,980 --> 00:56:10,380
years ago could we have been back to the

1317
00:56:14,990 --> 00:56:12,990
moon on Mars moving further out was it a

1318
00:56:16,190 --> 00:56:15,000
question of political will or was it a

1319
00:56:18,230 --> 00:56:16,200
question of we don't quite have the

1320
00:56:20,210 --> 00:56:18,240
science to get there yet well it's

1321
00:56:22,190 --> 00:56:20,220
really the technology and we did have

1322
00:56:23,510 --> 00:56:22,200
the science and yes I think we could

1323
00:56:25,370 --> 00:56:23,520
have and most of the people I knew in

1324
00:56:27,319 --> 00:56:25,380
the space program back in the 60s and

1325
00:56:29,120 --> 00:56:27,329
even in the 70s expected us to have a

1326
00:56:31,370 --> 00:56:29,130
base on the moon long before now

1327
00:56:33,920 --> 00:56:31,380
leadership was what was missing as far

1328
00:56:36,500 --> 00:56:33,930
as I'm concerned now their conspiracy

1329
00:56:39,710 --> 00:56:36,510
theorists who would say that the aliens

1330
00:56:42,470 --> 00:56:39,720
told us our state off our moon or don't

1331
00:56:45,049 --> 00:56:42,480
go to Mars we won't let you or you know

1332
00:56:47,960 --> 00:56:45,059
all kinds of stuff like that I think we

1333
00:56:51,349 --> 00:56:47,970
didn't have the leadership and I worked

1334
00:56:53,750 --> 00:56:51,359
on at least five large field technology

1335
00:56:56,089 --> 00:56:53,760
development programs spending tens of

1336
00:56:58,130 --> 00:56:56,099
millions of dollars a year which

1337
00:57:01,150 --> 00:56:58,140
desperately needed leadership somebody

1338
00:57:04,490 --> 00:57:01,160
said this is where we're going my

1339
00:57:06,470 --> 00:57:04,500
typical guy is more rickover you know

1340
00:57:08,539 --> 00:57:06,480
where he wanted to go with the nuclear

1341
00:57:10,039 --> 00:57:08,549
submarine and the battleship boys didn't

1342
00:57:13,160 --> 00:57:10,049
want to go there at all a lot of other

1343
00:57:15,289 --> 00:57:13,170
people were opposed to but he persisted

1344
00:57:17,000 --> 00:57:15,299
and I've talked to people who hated his

1345
00:57:19,190 --> 00:57:17,010
guts but loved his leaders

1346
00:57:21,799 --> 00:57:19,200
we haven't had that kind of leadership

1347
00:57:23,599 --> 00:57:21,809
about space since Kennedy said let's get

1348
00:57:27,049 --> 00:57:23,609
a man to the moon and back by the end of

1349
00:57:28,849 --> 00:57:27,059
the decade because I suppose when you

1350
00:57:30,010 --> 00:57:28,859
boiled it down that was a political

1351
00:57:31,630 --> 00:57:30,020
choice

1352
00:57:33,520 --> 00:57:31,640
wanted to show that we were better than

1353
00:57:35,410 --> 00:57:33,530
the Russians you remember the

1354
00:57:37,420 --> 00:57:35,420
consternation well I don't mean remember

1355
00:57:39,940 --> 00:57:37,430
personally but consternation when

1356
00:57:41,950 --> 00:57:39,950
Sputnik went up there was a huge you and

1357
00:57:43,930 --> 00:57:41,960
cry about how that means the Russian

1358
00:57:45,910 --> 00:57:43,940
system is better and all that kind of

1359
00:57:49,830 --> 00:57:45,920
stuff so we had to get a man to the moon

1360
00:57:52,870 --> 00:57:49,840
and back to fill a political need so the

1361
00:57:55,360 --> 00:57:52,880
short of it is stand there the reason we

1362
00:57:58,600 --> 00:57:55,370
went to the moon in 1969 was because

1363
00:58:00,730 --> 00:57:58,610
there was a political need to best the

1364
00:58:03,850 --> 00:58:00,740
Russians at their own game if that

1365
00:58:06,820 --> 00:58:03,860
didn't happen it might still be sitting

1366
00:58:08,800 --> 00:58:06,830
there with a plan and not being on the

1367
00:58:10,540 --> 00:58:08,810
moon you know I agree that was a

1368
00:58:12,910 --> 00:58:10,550
political choice and what I'm saying is

1369
00:58:15,970 --> 00:58:12,920
since that time there hasn't been the

1370
00:58:18,910 --> 00:58:15,980
political will to be a Rick over to be a

1371
00:58:21,700 --> 00:58:18,920
Kennedy the point is that in almost all

1372
00:58:23,290 --> 00:58:21,710
of these areas you find that you develop

1373
00:58:25,930 --> 00:58:23,300
the most important uses for new

1374
00:58:27,640 --> 00:58:25,940
technology after you've done the

1375
00:58:30,160 --> 00:58:27,650
preliminary work to establish that the

1376
00:58:31,930 --> 00:58:30,170
technology is real look the people

1377
00:58:35,490 --> 00:58:31,940
invented the laser weren't talking about

1378
00:58:38,620 --> 00:58:35,500
checkout counters at the supermarket or

1379
00:58:40,980 --> 00:58:38,630
drilling holes and baby bottle nipples

1380
00:58:43,780 --> 00:58:40,990
which you can do with open surgery or

1381
00:58:45,370 --> 00:58:43,790
using the internet for example where

1382
00:58:49,960 --> 00:58:45,380
you've got optical stuff all over the

1383
00:58:52,570 --> 00:58:49,970
place that comes later but they don't

1384
00:58:53,920 --> 00:58:52,580
haven't had the willingness so let's get

1385
00:58:56,410 --> 00:58:53,930
on with it

1386
00:58:59,080 --> 00:58:56,420
let's provide the leadership have people

1387
00:59:00,550 --> 00:58:59,090
like Wernher von Braun and you know I

1388
00:59:02,620 --> 00:59:00,560
don't want to go under political whether

1389
00:59:04,600 --> 00:59:02,630
it was a Nazi or not and all the rest of

1390
00:59:06,640 --> 00:59:04,610
that stuff but he knew what he wanted to

1391
00:59:09,100 --> 00:59:06,650
do in space and he was when he was

1392
00:59:12,670 --> 00:59:09,110
finally given the opportunity after the

1393
00:59:14,590 --> 00:59:12,680
navy's satellite program point kibosh he

1394
00:59:17,500 --> 00:59:14,600
did it and he knew how to get big

1395
00:59:21,220 --> 00:59:17,510
projects done we haven't had anybody

1396
00:59:24,070 --> 00:59:21,230
like that saying let's get the base on

1397
00:59:26,530 --> 00:59:24,080
the moon let's go to mars the nuclear

1398
00:59:29,500 --> 00:59:26,540
rockets that i worked on in the late 60s

1399
00:59:32,500 --> 00:59:29,510
and that we tested successfully mind you

1400
00:59:34,800 --> 00:59:32,510
on the ground would make great upper

1401
00:59:37,060 --> 00:59:34,810
stages to double to triple your weight

1402
00:59:40,030 --> 00:59:37,070
that you can send to Mars

1403
00:59:40,640 --> 00:59:40,040
what stand let's go into this more

1404
00:59:43,580 --> 00:59:40,650
detail

1405
00:59:45,800 --> 00:59:43,590
in part two of the episode the book is

1406
00:59:47,480 --> 00:59:45,810
called science was wrong startling

1407
00:59:50,450 --> 00:59:47,490
truths about cures theories and

1408
00:59:54,080 --> 00:59:50,460
inventions they the collective a

1409
00:59:56,690 --> 00:59:54,090
declared impossible with Stanton T

1410
00:59:58,940 --> 00:59:56,700
Friedman and Kathleen Martin our co-host

1411
01:00:01,490 --> 00:59:58,950
this week is Paul Kimble we have lots

1412
01:00:03,370 --> 01:00:01,500
more on the other side of the power cast

1413
01:00:06,290 --> 01:00:03,380
[Music]

1414
01:00:08,060 --> 01:00:06,300
we want to hear from you if you have a

1415
01:00:11,330 --> 01:00:08,070
comment or question about the pair cast

1416
01:00:14,750 --> 01:00:11,340
send it to news at the podcast calm

1417
01:00:16,730 --> 01:00:14,760
that's news at the pair cast calm and

1418
01:00:18,440 --> 01:00:16,740
don't forget to visit our forums where

1419
01:00:20,990 --> 01:00:18,450
you can talk to fellow listeners just go

1420
01:00:23,480 --> 01:00:21,000
to the pair cast calm and click on the

1421
01:00:32,330 --> 01:00:23,490
forum links that's the forum links at

1422
01:00:34,430 --> 01:00:32,340
Lapera cast calm welcome back to the

1423
01:00:39,620 --> 01:00:34,440
parrot house with Jean Steinberg and

1424
01:00:44,630 --> 01:00:42,350
our co-host this week Paul Kimbo we're

1425
01:00:47,920 --> 01:00:44,640
talking with Stanton Friedman Cathleen

1426
01:00:49,550 --> 01:00:47,930
Martin the book is entitled science

1427
01:00:51,560 --> 01:00:49,560
what's wrong

1428
01:00:53,750 --> 01:00:51,570
startling truths about cures theories

1429
01:00:55,940 --> 01:00:53,760
and inventions they declare it

1430
01:00:57,470 --> 01:00:55,950
impossible we focus on the space program

1431
01:00:59,990 --> 01:00:57,480
and every time we talk about the

1432
01:01:02,240 --> 01:01:00,000
possibility there's life elsewhere they

1433
01:01:04,250 --> 01:01:02,250
might be coming here we have to think

1434
01:01:05,930 --> 01:01:04,260
about what is wrong with our current

1435
01:01:07,850 --> 01:01:05,940
space program there right now it looks

1436
01:01:09,560 --> 01:01:07,860
like private industry is getting

1437
01:01:12,590 --> 01:01:09,570
involved at least in the u.s. space

1438
01:01:14,990 --> 01:01:12,600
program so Stanton Friedman what can

1439
01:01:17,600 --> 01:01:15,000
they do to fix the space program how do

1440
01:01:20,030 --> 01:01:17,610
we show leadership and how do we deal in

1441
01:01:23,450 --> 01:01:20,040
a world where we don't have money for

1442
01:01:25,310 --> 01:01:23,460
anything well we first of all recognize

1443
01:01:27,350 --> 01:01:25,320
that the money on the space program is

1444
01:01:30,140 --> 01:01:27,360
being spent down here it's not being

1445
01:01:33,650 --> 01:01:30,150
spent in space it's not even going up in

1446
01:01:35,780 --> 01:01:33,660
smoke up there you know secondly all the

1447
01:01:38,600 --> 01:01:35,790
great industries have come about because

1448
01:01:40,280 --> 01:01:38,610
the private world got involved there's

1449
01:01:43,820 --> 01:01:40,290
an article in New York Times about Bob

1450
01:01:45,830 --> 01:01:43,830
Bigelow which is a billionaire who's

1451
01:01:49,130 --> 01:01:45,840
also been involved in UFO research and

1452
01:01:50,930 --> 01:01:49,140
stuff and he's got some structures in

1453
01:01:54,080 --> 01:01:50,940
space now and we'll be putting up some

1454
01:01:57,560 --> 01:01:54,090
more and the this Falcon rocket just

1455
01:01:59,990 --> 01:01:57,570
went up from Elon Musk if you look at

1456
01:02:02,330 --> 01:02:00,000
the computer business and look at the

1457
01:02:04,970 --> 01:02:02,340
airplane business than many companies in

1458
01:02:06,890 --> 01:02:04,980
both that went broke the best guys came

1459
01:02:08,930 --> 01:02:06,900
out on top I guess you can say oh I'll

1460
01:02:11,210 --> 01:02:08,940
give Bill Gates that many people want to

1461
01:02:12,980 --> 01:02:11,220
attack him but I want the heck he

1462
01:02:14,930 --> 01:02:12,990
banished them to do a lot of good stuff

1463
01:02:17,210 --> 01:02:14,940
I think Bill Gates will do more good

1464
01:02:19,460 --> 01:02:17,220
stuff as a philanthropist than what he

1465
01:02:21,530 --> 01:02:19,470
did again he was still head of Microsoft

1466
01:02:23,240 --> 01:02:21,540
but let's just move past that that's

1467
01:02:26,060 --> 01:02:23,250
just a personal observation what I'm

1468
01:02:28,580 --> 01:02:26,070
saying is when you have private industry

1469
01:02:31,070 --> 01:02:28,590
get involved and there's a competition I

1470
01:02:33,920 --> 01:02:31,080
think that's when you get real progress

1471
01:02:36,860 --> 01:02:33,930
in technology and then all kinds of

1472
01:02:38,990 --> 01:02:36,870
other areas and I wish for example I

1473
01:02:41,390 --> 01:02:39,000
mentioned Emeril rickover we haven't

1474
01:02:43,220 --> 01:02:41,400
seen nuclear ships being used the way

1475
01:02:44,450 --> 01:02:43,230
they should have been used save a lot of

1476
01:02:46,850 --> 01:02:44,460
oil that way too

1477
01:02:48,560 --> 01:02:46,860
I mean I shocked people and I say we

1478
01:02:51,300 --> 01:02:48,570
have aircraft carriers that can operate

1479
01:02:54,270 --> 01:02:51,310
for 18 years without refueling

1480
01:02:56,940 --> 01:02:54,280
holding nuclear powered think of how

1481
01:02:59,430 --> 01:02:56,950
much oil isn't burned in other words

1482
01:03:02,460 --> 01:02:59,440
they keep those things moving but we

1483
01:03:05,160 --> 01:03:02,470
haven't moved that technology over to

1484
01:03:09,270 --> 01:03:05,170
the private sector if you will we need

1485
01:03:13,160 --> 01:03:09,280
in space to have some competition to

1486
01:03:16,950 --> 01:03:13,170
have a partnership between say NASA and

1487
01:03:19,350 --> 01:03:16,960
the world outside of the government and

1488
01:03:22,170 --> 01:03:19,360
in the past that's you know cost plus

1489
01:03:24,060 --> 01:03:22,180
contracts I worked on a lot of those and

1490
01:03:27,210 --> 01:03:24,070
that's kind of nice you don't have to

1491
01:03:30,870 --> 01:03:27,220
keep within budgets but you need

1492
01:03:32,670 --> 01:03:30,880
leadership and management with a common

1493
01:03:35,550 --> 01:03:32,680
goal and I haven't seen a lot of that

1494
01:03:37,980 --> 01:03:35,560
especially in the space program it's I'm

1495
01:03:40,730 --> 01:03:37,990
greatly disappointed about that I think

1496
01:03:43,560 --> 01:03:40,740
we should have a base on the moon okay

1497
01:03:47,040 --> 01:03:43,570
of course issue number two stand which

1498
01:03:49,680 --> 01:03:47,050
is we're talking a lot about the UFO

1499
01:03:52,770 --> 01:03:49,690
mystery and you mentioned that in the

1500
01:03:54,750 --> 01:03:52,780
book science was wrong okay knowing that

1501
01:03:56,720 --> 01:03:54,760
UFOs are out there and certainly the

1502
01:03:59,550 --> 01:03:56,730
government has to be aware of this and

1503
01:04:02,460 --> 01:03:59,560
possibly you're suspecting if there

1504
01:04:05,250 --> 01:04:02,470
isn't any contact which maybe we don't

1505
01:04:07,380 --> 01:04:05,260
believe in already suspecting they're

1506
01:04:09,570 --> 01:04:07,390
from out there wouldn't there be a

1507
01:04:13,140 --> 01:04:09,580
program somewhere to say you know we got

1508
01:04:15,450 --> 01:04:13,150
to basically get into space now because

1509
01:04:17,070 --> 01:04:15,460
someone is out there and we don't know

1510
01:04:19,050 --> 01:04:17,080
what they're going to do if we aren't

1511
01:04:21,960 --> 01:04:19,060
ready to compete it's an interesting

1512
01:04:25,020 --> 01:04:21,970
question and I wondered why we haven't

1513
01:04:27,240 --> 01:04:25,030
used that as the reason for going you

1514
01:04:29,580 --> 01:04:27,250
know getting Emily into UFOs because

1515
01:04:32,580 --> 01:04:29,590
they're out there and using that as an

1516
01:04:34,680 --> 01:04:32,590
excuse to get into space more that's a

1517
01:04:37,320 --> 01:04:34,690
political decision then I don't know

1518
01:04:39,480 --> 01:04:37,330
what's behind behind it it scares me

1519
01:04:41,310 --> 01:04:39,490
sometimes maybe the government knows

1520
01:04:44,490 --> 01:04:41,320
something terrible is going to happen

1521
01:04:46,200 --> 01:04:44,500
and that's why they won't tell us maybe

1522
01:04:48,060 --> 01:04:46,210
they're afraid that people in power will

1523
01:04:50,220 --> 01:04:48,070
lose power if an announcement is to be

1524
01:04:51,990 --> 01:04:50,230
made the next president of the world is

1525
01:04:54,690 --> 01:04:52,000
going to be Chinese I got most of the

1526
01:04:56,040 --> 01:04:54,700
people you know what I'm saying is I

1527
01:04:58,320 --> 01:04:56,050
don't think we have had enough

1528
01:05:00,510 --> 01:04:58,330
discussion you know we hear this talk

1529
01:05:02,190 --> 01:05:00,520
about disclosure and stuff but I don't

1530
01:05:04,100 --> 01:05:02,200
think we've had enough discussion about

1531
01:05:06,800 --> 01:05:04,110
what should be disclosed and

1532
01:05:08,600 --> 01:05:06,810
how should it be disclosed and where do

1533
01:05:11,090 --> 01:05:08,610
we go from here what is what is the

1534
01:05:13,130 --> 01:05:11,100
impact I mean I'll admit I was very

1535
01:05:15,350 --> 01:05:13,140
pleased and I think Cathy I told you

1536
01:05:18,110 --> 01:05:15,360
about this but when I first heard about

1537
01:05:20,000 --> 01:05:18,120
the Pope saying you know no big deal if

1538
01:05:23,270 --> 01:05:20,010
they're out there God made us he made

1539
01:05:27,260 --> 01:05:23,280
them and my first thought was hey what

1540
01:05:30,410 --> 01:05:27,270
does he know that we don't know who's

1541
01:05:33,710 --> 01:05:30,420
been telling him the truth if anybody

1542
01:05:37,610 --> 01:05:33,720
has yeah there's a whole political

1543
01:05:39,650 --> 01:05:37,620
morass here of why we do or don't do

1544
01:05:41,900 --> 01:05:39,660
certain things out there is all our

1545
01:05:44,600 --> 01:05:41,910
movement towards space to protect us

1546
01:05:47,030 --> 01:05:44,610
those same anti-missile missiles can be

1547
01:05:50,030 --> 01:05:47,040
aimed at to destroy the UFOs kind of

1548
01:05:52,790 --> 01:05:50,040
thing okay but stand is another point to

1549
01:05:54,110 --> 01:05:52,800
another issue and we have to bring it up

1550
01:05:57,280 --> 01:05:54,120
because this is something you've

1551
01:06:00,530 --> 01:05:57,290
discussed so often say Roswell happened

1552
01:06:02,960 --> 01:06:00,540
say there was a crash of a spaceship

1553
01:06:05,450 --> 01:06:02,970
from elsewhere say we recovered the

1554
01:06:11,480 --> 01:06:05,460
wreckage where's the technology folks

1555
01:06:13,670 --> 01:06:11,490
who said there wasn't giving us the

1556
01:06:17,030 --> 01:06:13,680
lieutenant colonel philip corso approach

1557
01:06:19,220 --> 01:06:17,040
here no I'm not not at all I'm not a

1558
01:06:22,430 --> 01:06:19,230
great respecter of the Corps so approach

1559
01:06:24,200 --> 01:06:22,440
look if you gave Columbus it's a homely

1560
01:06:25,730 --> 01:06:24,210
example but if you gave him a nuclear

1561
01:06:28,190 --> 01:06:25,740
submarine and say Chris he'd done a

1562
01:06:30,440 --> 01:06:28,200
great job out there you found a whole

1563
01:06:32,300 --> 01:06:30,450
new world we got a little problem here

1564
01:06:34,400 --> 01:06:32,310
we got unlimited money I need two more

1565
01:06:36,950 --> 01:06:34,410
of these nuclear submarines could he

1566
01:06:38,780 --> 01:06:36,960
have built one not a chance there was

1567
01:06:40,940 --> 01:06:38,790
too much that he didn't know that he

1568
01:06:43,550 --> 01:06:40,950
would need to know to be able to do that

1569
01:06:45,620 --> 01:06:43,560
and I think when it comes to alien

1570
01:06:48,410 --> 01:06:45,630
technology I think we've learned some

1571
01:06:51,110 --> 01:06:48,420
things I use a homey example in a

1572
01:06:53,570 --> 01:06:51,120
different book about the samarium-cobalt

1573
01:06:55,010 --> 01:06:53,580
permanent magnets you get a piece from

1574
01:06:56,540 --> 01:06:55,020
the wreckage you send it to the right

1575
01:06:59,180 --> 01:06:56,550
people and they come back and tell you

1576
01:07:00,530 --> 01:06:59,190
hey this is samarium-cobalt and you send

1577
01:07:03,230 --> 01:07:00,540
it to somebody else and they say hey

1578
01:07:05,330 --> 01:07:03,240
highest magnetic field I've ever

1579
01:07:08,120 --> 01:07:05,340
mentioned for measured for a permanent

1580
01:07:09,880 --> 01:07:08,130
magnet and that winds up in ghetto

1581
01:07:13,070 --> 01:07:09,890
blasters believe it or not that's the

1582
01:07:16,220 --> 01:07:13,080
permanent magnet and the original work I

1583
01:07:17,090 --> 01:07:16,230
found out years later was done at right

1584
01:07:18,890 --> 01:07:17,100
here developed

1585
01:07:22,220 --> 01:07:18,900
Center no but I know where they got the

1586
01:07:24,440 --> 01:07:22,230
idea so and there's a picture of me in

1587
01:07:26,450 --> 01:07:24,450
my book flying saucers in science

1588
01:07:29,180 --> 01:07:26,460
standing next to the Apollo 12 command

1589
01:07:31,820 --> 01:07:29,190
module with light and on it you know

1590
01:07:33,080 --> 01:07:31,830
what it's a round blunt body I always

1591
01:07:34,760 --> 01:07:33,090
thought when I was young that a

1592
01:07:36,980 --> 01:07:34,770
high-speed aircraft that have a pointy

1593
01:07:39,560 --> 01:07:36,990
nose sharp wings highly extreme one you

1594
01:07:41,930 --> 01:07:39,570
know like the x-15 or something maybe

1595
01:07:44,660 --> 01:07:41,940
the idea for a round blunt body came

1596
01:07:47,300 --> 01:07:44,670
from knowing that saucers around blunt

1597
01:07:48,860 --> 01:07:47,310
bodies and they can move awful fast so

1598
01:07:51,830 --> 01:07:48,870
I'm not saying we haven't learned

1599
01:07:56,300 --> 01:07:51,840
anything I don't think we've learned the

1600
01:07:59,200 --> 01:07:56,310
big things like how to easily build say

1601
01:08:02,270 --> 01:07:59,210
a rocket to get us from Zeta Reticuli to

1602
01:08:04,640 --> 01:08:02,280
the Sun and the cost would be enormous

1603
01:08:07,550 --> 01:08:04,650
to incidentally even if we did know how

1604
01:08:10,610 --> 01:08:07,560
to do it in terms of little bits and

1605
01:08:13,490 --> 01:08:10,620
pieces of technology it may very well be

1606
01:08:16,790 --> 01:08:13,500
and I hear talk about people using

1607
01:08:18,860 --> 01:08:16,800
magneto aerodynamic propulsion you know

1608
01:08:21,170 --> 01:08:18,870
as a possibility and maybe learn from

1609
01:08:23,840 --> 01:08:21,180
saucers I don't know okay so talking

1610
01:08:27,770 --> 01:08:23,850
about the low-hanging fruit here stand

1611
01:08:29,750 --> 01:08:27,780
that obviously that technology exists

1612
01:08:31,730 --> 01:08:29,760
it's way beyond what we can figure out

1613
01:08:32,060 --> 01:08:31,740
we've had it there for more than 60

1614
01:08:34,040 --> 01:08:32,070
years

1615
01:08:36,170 --> 01:08:34,050
and we're just getting the stuff that

1616
01:08:38,210 --> 01:08:36,180
maybe we could sort of figure out what

1617
01:08:40,430 --> 01:08:38,220
the hope that over time we'll figure out

1618
01:08:43,430 --> 01:08:40,440
the rest of course that argues against

1619
01:08:45,680 --> 01:08:43,440
us being direct communication with et

1620
01:08:47,720 --> 01:08:45,690
we're not talking to them we don't know

1621
01:08:49,400 --> 01:08:47,730
that we're not the art Campbell out on

1622
01:08:51,290 --> 01:08:49,410
the west coast is doing a lot of work

1623
01:08:54,079 --> 01:08:51,300
that indicates that indeed Eisenhower

1624
01:08:56,240 --> 01:08:54,089
met with some ETS that in Alamogordo

1625
01:08:58,370 --> 01:08:56,250
well just outside element or DOE and

1626
01:09:00,829 --> 01:08:58,380
Holloman Air Force Base we don't know

1627
01:09:03,290 --> 01:09:00,839
but was he speaking for the planet I

1628
01:09:06,410 --> 01:09:03,300
don't know and it gets to the whole

1629
01:09:09,020 --> 01:09:06,420
question of why would aliens come here

1630
01:09:11,030 --> 01:09:09,030
and you know this silly business with

1631
01:09:12,800 --> 01:09:11,040
Stephen Hawking you know we shouldn't

1632
01:09:14,570 --> 01:09:12,810
attract their attention because they

1633
01:09:16,460 --> 01:09:14,580
might cause to happen to us what

1634
01:09:19,880 --> 01:09:16,470
Columbus caused to happen to the natives

1635
01:09:21,650 --> 01:09:19,890
and I think that's silly because we

1636
01:09:23,960 --> 01:09:21,660
already do have weapons of mass

1637
01:09:26,990 --> 01:09:23,970
destruction we Earthlings we do have

1638
01:09:29,269 --> 01:09:27,000
reconnaissance systems by satellites all

1639
01:09:32,089 --> 01:09:29,279
kinds of stuff we're poised to

1640
01:09:34,490 --> 01:09:32,099
go out to the stars they say with a

1641
01:09:36,439 --> 01:09:34,500
hundred years and that's not very long

1642
01:09:38,599 --> 01:09:36,449
at a cosmic time scale if you were an

1643
01:09:40,939 --> 01:09:38,609
alien wouldn't you be concerned about

1644
01:09:44,209 --> 01:09:40,949
Earthlings anybody in the neighborhood

1645
01:09:46,640 --> 01:09:44,219
sure but yeah but if you follow UFO

1646
01:09:49,430 --> 01:09:46,650
cases we're going back to Ezekiel's

1647
01:09:51,229 --> 01:09:49,440
wheels here so if he T's been around

1648
01:09:54,500 --> 01:09:51,239
they've been around for an awful long

1649
01:09:56,600 --> 01:09:54,510
time haven't they sure oh yeah I like

1650
01:09:59,299 --> 01:09:56,610
Barry Downing's book the Bible and

1651
01:10:03,620 --> 01:09:59,309
flying saucers that takes us back a few

1652
01:10:05,330 --> 01:10:03,630
thousand years anyway yeah so you check

1653
01:10:08,240 --> 01:10:05,340
them out every once in a while what are

1654
01:10:12,500 --> 01:10:08,250
the natives doing not much a hundred

1655
01:10:14,629 --> 01:10:12,510
years later not much but the past 110

1656
01:10:17,209 --> 01:10:14,639
years everything is changed on this

1657
01:10:21,020 --> 01:10:17,219
planet you know not only flight and

1658
01:10:21,529 --> 01:10:21,030
space and electronics and all that sort

1659
01:10:23,750 --> 01:10:21,539
of stuff

1660
01:10:26,689 --> 01:10:23,760
I mean we're primitive we didn't

1661
01:10:32,149 --> 01:10:26,699
discover the neutron until 1932 for

1662
01:10:34,520 --> 01:10:32,159
goodness sakes but why is Hawking wrong

1663
01:10:37,069 --> 01:10:34,530
Stan because when I heard what Hawking

1664
01:10:39,379 --> 01:10:37,079
said it resonated with me at least to

1665
01:10:41,270 --> 01:10:39,389
some extent the idea that you're sending

1666
01:10:43,040 --> 01:10:41,280
these signals out there pell-mell or

1667
01:10:44,660 --> 01:10:43,050
you're sending these Voyager probes or

1668
01:10:46,310 --> 01:10:44,670
whatever out there without really

1669
01:10:48,020 --> 01:10:46,320
thinking about let's assume there's

1670
01:10:49,850 --> 01:10:48,030
extraterrestrial life out there maybe

1671
01:10:51,560 --> 01:10:49,860
even here without really thinking about

1672
01:10:53,689 --> 01:10:51,570
what you might encounter and it's

1673
01:10:56,120 --> 01:10:53,699
working on the assumption and I think it

1674
01:10:57,439 --> 01:10:56,130
was very much sort of a 60s kind of

1675
01:10:58,819 --> 01:10:57,449
assumption if you look at most of the

1676
01:11:01,069 --> 01:10:58,829
scientists who've been working on these

1677
01:11:03,049 --> 01:11:01,079
programs for the last 20 or 30 years

1678
01:11:04,790 --> 01:11:03,059
they grew up in the 60s peace love and

1679
01:11:06,290 --> 01:11:04,800
understanding and apparently they

1680
01:11:08,810 --> 01:11:06,300
weren't paying attention to the Vietnam

1681
01:11:10,520 --> 01:11:08,820
War in the Cold War and nuclear

1682
01:11:14,750 --> 01:11:10,530
proliferation they missed that part

1683
01:11:15,830 --> 01:11:14,760
so what what if we wind up with aliens

1684
01:11:18,680 --> 01:11:15,840
out there that you know like

1685
01:11:20,089 --> 01:11:18,690
Independence Day that idea I think

1686
01:11:21,890 --> 01:11:20,099
Hawking actually talked about it that

1687
01:11:23,540 --> 01:11:21,900
aliens because they were traveling from

1688
01:11:25,339 --> 01:11:23,550
systems even they would be generational

1689
01:11:27,290 --> 01:11:25,349
ships self-sustaining and they would

1690
01:11:29,660 --> 01:11:27,300
simply move from system to system and

1691
01:11:31,370 --> 01:11:29,670
strip those systems as they did an

1692
01:11:36,729 --> 01:11:31,380
Independence Day of their resources and

1693
01:11:39,770 --> 01:11:36,739
then move on so quite wrong

1694
01:11:41,299 --> 01:11:39,780
because he totally ignores all the

1695
01:11:43,850 --> 01:11:41,309
evidence that they've been coming here

1696
01:11:46,639 --> 01:11:43,860
for a long time we know something about

1697
01:11:47,989 --> 01:11:46,649
alien behavior coming here we haven't

1698
01:11:50,449 --> 01:11:47,999
found a lot of places where they've

1699
01:11:54,949 --> 01:11:50,459
wiped out the the civilizations there

1700
01:11:56,899 --> 01:11:54,959
maybe they did that's not true let's

1701
01:11:58,399 --> 01:11:56,909
assume alien abductions are real and we

1702
01:12:00,979 --> 01:11:58,409
can get into that because both you

1703
01:12:03,369 --> 01:12:00,989
obviously even Kathleen literally wrote

1704
01:12:06,589 --> 01:12:03,379
the book sort of on the hill of texture

1705
01:12:09,319 --> 01:12:06,599
experience but would you not say that if

1706
01:12:12,679 --> 01:12:09,329
alien abductions are real that that is

1707
01:12:14,060 --> 01:12:12,689
not an intrusive phenomenon that some of

1708
01:12:16,069 --> 01:12:14,070
the things that are described for

1709
01:12:17,899 --> 01:12:16,079
instance by Travis Walton let's assume

1710
01:12:20,509 --> 01:12:17,909
the Travis Waltons account for the

1711
01:12:22,879 --> 01:12:20,519
minute is real and truthful the things

1712
01:12:24,109 --> 01:12:22,889
that he's described are not the kinds of

1713
01:12:26,899 --> 01:12:24,119
things that you would expect from the

1714
01:12:29,449 --> 01:12:26,909
space brothers of the 1950s that these

1715
01:12:31,489 --> 01:12:29,459
are things that if a human was to do it

1716
01:12:33,439 --> 01:12:31,499
to you you would wind up in front of a

1717
01:12:36,770 --> 01:12:33,449
judge in a criminal trial for a whole

1718
01:12:39,379 --> 01:12:36,780
bunch of crimes and rightly so so is it

1719
01:12:40,790 --> 01:12:39,389
all it's even assuming there aren't are

1720
01:12:42,889 --> 01:12:40,800
they're not indicators that they might

1721
01:12:45,949 --> 01:12:42,899
be less friendly than someone like

1722
01:12:48,229 --> 01:12:45,959
Steven Greer would have us believe well

1723
01:12:51,129 --> 01:12:48,239
I can't imagine them not being less

1724
01:12:55,040 --> 01:12:53,629
whichever whichever Exopolitics person

1725
01:12:57,619 --> 01:12:55,050
thinks they're all friendly and habit I

1726
01:13:00,830 --> 01:12:57,629
think that's great yeah I think yeah he

1727
01:13:03,709 --> 01:13:00,840
and Weber and the rest of them I'm not

1728
01:13:05,419 --> 01:13:03,719
saying that these guys are good guys you

1729
01:13:09,290 --> 01:13:05,429
know and the sense of peace brother

1730
01:13:11,540 --> 01:13:09,300
whatever what I'm saying is that Hawking

1731
01:13:13,969 --> 01:13:11,550
has not looked at either of two areas

1732
01:13:16,009 --> 01:13:13,979
one of those was the enormous amount of

1733
01:13:19,279 --> 01:13:16,019
data indicating that aliens are coming

1734
01:13:20,629 --> 01:13:19,289
here and you know how they behave and so

1735
01:13:23,350 --> 01:13:20,639
forth and the other is this whole

1736
01:13:25,509 --> 01:13:23,360
business of interstellar travel and it

1737
01:13:28,189 --> 01:13:25,519
boggles the mind that it's the

1738
01:13:31,819 --> 01:13:28,199
astrophysicist who don't look sensibly

1739
01:13:33,589 --> 01:13:31,829
he makes it sound you just repeated it

1740
01:13:35,350 --> 01:13:33,599
as a matter of fact that you know you go

1741
01:13:37,219 --> 01:13:35,360
from place to place and it's

1742
01:13:39,589 --> 01:13:37,229
multi-generational and all that kind of

1743
01:13:41,270 --> 01:13:39,599
stuff yeah I'm saying you know that

1744
01:13:43,429 --> 01:13:41,280
looks like saying the time it takes to

1745
01:13:46,369 --> 01:13:43,439
go around the planet is obviously three

1746
01:13:48,580 --> 01:13:46,379
years that's what Magellan ship took but

1747
01:13:50,740 --> 01:13:48,590
now you can do it in 90 minutes not

1748
01:13:52,419 --> 01:13:50,750
same thing can eat enough before the

1749
01:13:57,820 --> 01:13:52,429
trip so you don't have to worry until we

1750
01:14:01,530 --> 01:13:57,830
get back okay there's also the concept

1751
01:14:04,689 --> 01:14:01,540
stand of the mothership which does the

1752
01:14:06,640 --> 01:14:04,699
trans woman or whatever and they come

1753
01:14:08,410 --> 01:14:06,650
here from the other star system and they

1754
01:14:10,780 --> 01:14:08,420
bring with them a lot of smaller scalp

1755
01:14:19,030 --> 01:14:10,790
ships before we get a scout ships and

1756
01:14:21,040 --> 01:14:19,040
abductions and all that hi this is Tamar

1757
01:14:22,839 --> 01:14:21,050
from new G weird domain name and web

1758
01:14:25,180 --> 01:14:22,849
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1759
01:14:27,490 --> 01:14:25,190
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1760
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1761
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1763
01:14:34,870 --> 01:14:33,110
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1764
01:14:36,669 --> 01:14:34,880
inbox or upon checkout but most

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01:14:38,620 --> 01:14:36,679
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01:14:40,810 --> 01:14:38,630
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1767
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01:14:44,560 --> 01:14:42,619
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1769
01:14:46,540 --> 01:14:44,570
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1770
01:14:48,700 --> 01:14:46,550
at Radio namecheap.com

1771
01:14:50,680 --> 01:14:48,710
for web hosting and domain name specials

1772
01:14:56,200 --> 01:14:50,690
you can also follow us on twitter at

1773
01:14:59,500 --> 01:14:56,210
twitter.com/zeromd bars on facebook at

1774
01:15:07,859 --> 01:14:59,510
facebook.com slash named you online

1775
01:15:13,169 --> 01:15:10,330
stand with Freedmen's with kathleen

1776
01:15:16,959 --> 01:15:13,179
martin their author of a new book called

1777
01:15:19,839 --> 01:15:16,969
science was wrong and the subtitle of

1778
01:15:22,240 --> 01:15:19,849
the book is starving truths about cures

1779
01:15:24,850 --> 01:15:22,250
theories and inventions they declared

1780
01:15:27,339 --> 01:15:24,860
impossible and we're looking at of

1781
01:15:30,700 --> 01:15:27,349
course UFOs and some of the questions

1782
01:15:32,950 --> 01:15:30,710
that I raised about UFOs a lot of people

1783
01:15:34,419 --> 01:15:32,960
do not saying they're not real but there

1784
01:15:37,359 --> 01:15:34,429
are such peculiar things they're doing

1785
01:15:41,410 --> 01:15:37,369
ok alien logic but why do they always

1786
01:15:43,720 --> 01:15:41,420
need to land and the UFO nuts repeatedly

1787
01:15:46,689 --> 01:15:43,730
over and over again all around the world

1788
01:15:47,979 --> 01:15:46,699
take the same soil samples why do you

1789
01:15:50,530 --> 01:15:47,989
need to do that you can do that with

1790
01:15:52,359 --> 01:15:50,540
robotic craft are you asking me that

1791
01:15:53,950 --> 01:15:52,369
question sure it's pretty obvious that

1792
01:15:55,390 --> 01:15:53,960
unless you look around the world you're

1793
01:15:58,990 --> 01:15:55,400
not going to find some of the things you

1794
01:16:02,090 --> 01:15:59,000
don't find gold everywhere you looking

1795
01:16:04,220 --> 01:16:02,100
maybe for biological material and maybe

1796
01:16:06,260 --> 01:16:04,230
Gregg students I cut up a frog when I

1797
01:16:09,080 --> 01:16:06,270
was in school a long time ago and

1798
01:16:09,800 --> 01:16:09,090
millions of stupid they still do that or

1799
01:16:12,530 --> 01:16:09,810
not me

1800
01:16:15,020 --> 01:16:12,540
maybe it's against the rules now but why

1801
01:16:16,880 --> 01:16:15,030
did all those stupid American kids cut

1802
01:16:19,630 --> 01:16:16,890
up frogs and if they learn the first

1803
01:16:22,610 --> 01:16:19,640
time was part of a teaching experience

1804
01:16:24,260 --> 01:16:22,620
checking it out you guys know what

1805
01:16:26,600 --> 01:16:24,270
you're doing can you find out what's

1806
01:16:29,390 --> 01:16:26,610
here but the other thing is that our

1807
01:16:31,790 --> 01:16:29,400
planet is as varied as can be and what

1808
01:16:34,070 --> 01:16:31,800
minerals are either bitter in yon what

1809
01:16:35,840 --> 01:16:34,080
biological stuff why I was at Rutgers

1810
01:16:38,420 --> 01:16:35,850
University a long time ago we got

1811
01:16:42,080 --> 01:16:38,430
samples from all over the world of dirt

1812
01:16:44,570 --> 01:16:42,090
frankly and they cook this stuff

1813
01:16:47,750 --> 01:16:44,580
properly to see if they can find some

1814
01:16:50,420 --> 01:16:47,760
biological coulomb chemicals it's not

1815
01:16:52,850 --> 01:16:50,430
quite right but fungi and all kinds of

1816
01:16:54,380 --> 01:16:52,860
stuff I that might be used for the

1817
01:16:57,470 --> 01:16:54,390
treatment of disease and every once in a

1818
01:16:59,570 --> 01:16:57,480
while I found one on you know salvers

1819
01:17:01,610 --> 01:16:59,580
and cures for certain of the disease

1820
01:17:04,430 --> 01:17:01,620
they tried thousands of them then a

1821
01:17:06,770 --> 01:17:04,440
handful worked out pretty well isn't

1822
01:17:09,320 --> 01:17:06,780
that okay we understand maybe you want

1823
01:17:11,450 --> 01:17:09,330
to be more thorough about exploring our

1824
01:17:13,310 --> 01:17:11,460
planet but do you need to have the Grays

1825
01:17:15,560 --> 01:17:13,320
doing it why can't you just do it with

1826
01:17:19,520 --> 01:17:15,570
some kind of machine like we do with

1827
01:17:21,440 --> 01:17:19,530
Mars because I think you can my saying

1828
01:17:25,670 --> 01:17:21,450
so people control devices are more

1829
01:17:29,330 --> 01:17:25,680
reliable and can take other actions as

1830
01:17:31,820 --> 01:17:29,340
required I prefer you know not the

1831
01:17:34,370 --> 01:17:31,830
drones but the piloted craft if you will

1832
01:17:36,380 --> 01:17:34,380
but I don't speak for the aliens you

1833
01:17:39,470 --> 01:17:36,390
know I don't know why they do what they

1834
01:17:41,270 --> 01:17:39,480
do I don't have a pipeline to them but

1835
01:17:44,180 --> 01:17:41,280
we have to do is find out what they are

1836
01:17:46,130 --> 01:17:44,190
doing and if we can understand why that

1837
01:17:47,690 --> 01:17:46,140
comes later okay let's go back to

1838
01:17:49,610 --> 01:17:47,700
something you said earlier before Paul

1839
01:17:51,320 --> 01:17:49,620
picks up on a question go back to

1840
01:17:53,450 --> 01:17:51,330
something you said earlier the story

1841
01:17:55,910 --> 01:17:53,460
that Eisenhower and actually

1842
01:17:57,440 --> 01:17:55,920
communicated with et now do you really

1843
01:17:59,390 --> 01:17:57,450
believe that well I can kind of which

1844
01:18:03,260 --> 01:17:59,400
story you're talking about funny story

1845
01:18:06,020 --> 01:18:03,270
did eisenhower and we talked to et under

1846
01:18:07,940 --> 01:18:06,030
any circumstances art Campbell has done

1847
01:18:09,140 --> 01:18:07,950
it he was a teacher he's retired now

1848
01:18:13,540 --> 01:18:09,150
he's doing something useful

1849
01:18:19,220 --> 01:18:17,210
has found witnesses who were present at

1850
01:18:20,930 --> 01:18:19,230
the time when the UFO was down on the

1851
01:18:22,010 --> 01:18:20,940
other end of their own way and I

1852
01:18:24,860 --> 01:18:22,020
explained was there when he was

1853
01:18:26,480 --> 01:18:24,870
supposedly playing golf in Georgia and

1854
01:18:29,330 --> 01:18:26,490
he's got a book that'll be coming out

1855
01:18:31,790 --> 01:18:29,340
hopefully sometime soon and that

1856
01:18:33,620 --> 01:18:31,800
indicates that there was contact who

1857
01:18:35,900 --> 01:18:33,630
knows what happened I don't know what

1858
01:18:39,050 --> 01:18:35,910
happened all right but it sounds like

1859
01:18:41,600 --> 01:18:39,060
the meeting took place and so it

1860
01:18:43,780 --> 01:18:41,610
wouldn't be surprising if such a meeting

1861
01:18:46,850 --> 01:18:43,790
had taken place and partly because

1862
01:18:49,790 --> 01:18:46,860
remember that we put out orders before

1863
01:18:54,620 --> 01:18:49,800
Eisenhower came into office and he came

1864
01:18:57,170 --> 01:18:54,630
in August and January of 53 in 52 orders

1865
01:18:59,210 --> 01:18:57,180
were issued to shoot down UFOs if they

1866
01:19:02,000 --> 01:18:59,220
don't land when instructed to do so

1867
01:19:03,500 --> 01:19:02,010
which is pretty strong stuff and the

1868
01:19:04,700 --> 01:19:03,510
head of the American rocket Society

1869
01:19:07,160 --> 01:19:04,710
wrote a letter to Truman saying he

1870
01:19:09,410 --> 01:19:07,170
didn't think that was a good idea and I

1871
01:19:12,080 --> 01:19:09,420
have heard seven different cases of

1872
01:19:15,680 --> 01:19:12,090
pilots going up after American pilots

1873
01:19:18,770 --> 01:19:15,690
going up after UFOs and not coming back

1874
01:19:20,810 --> 01:19:18,780
and so what I'm suggesting is there

1875
01:19:23,450 --> 01:19:20,820
might have been some kind of a

1876
01:19:26,480 --> 01:19:23,460
discussion here about get off our backs

1877
01:19:27,950 --> 01:19:26,490
fellas you know that trying to shoot at

1878
01:19:30,410 --> 01:19:27,960
each other it doesn't seem like a

1879
01:19:31,910 --> 01:19:30,420
sensible thing to do we won't do certain

1880
01:19:35,810 --> 01:19:31,920
things if you don't do certain things

1881
01:19:38,180 --> 01:19:35,820
leave us alone so I could fit into that

1882
01:19:42,230 --> 01:19:38,190
time frame remember 52 is a very big

1883
01:19:43,940 --> 01:19:42,240
year for ufology if you will and so who

1884
01:19:46,490 --> 01:19:43,950
knows what the reasons were or what

1885
01:19:48,380 --> 01:19:46,500
happened but certainly shooting down

1886
01:19:51,680 --> 01:19:48,390
airplanes is not something we'd like to

1887
01:19:52,250 --> 01:19:51,690
have go on forever is it I don't think

1888
01:19:54,700 --> 01:19:52,260
so

1889
01:19:56,900 --> 01:19:54,710
as much as I find the subject of UFOs

1890
01:19:59,300 --> 01:19:56,910
fascinating and I'm sure the Parkes

1891
01:20:05,630 --> 01:19:59,310
listeners would love to continue to

1892
01:20:08,480 --> 01:20:05,640
listen to UFOs I'm bored Cathy are you

1893
01:20:09,440 --> 01:20:08,490
still there yes I am she's not bored

1894
01:20:11,570 --> 01:20:09,450
thank God

1895
01:20:13,640 --> 01:20:11,580
the hemophiliac ala cost because the

1896
01:20:15,710 --> 01:20:13,650
book is titled science was wrong and you

1897
01:20:17,720 --> 01:20:15,720
know what as important as UFOs might be

1898
01:20:19,430 --> 01:20:17,730
in our long-term development as humans

1899
01:20:20,930 --> 01:20:19,440
if they really are extraterrestrials or

1900
01:20:23,450 --> 01:20:20,940
whatever they are maybe we can learn

1901
01:20:24,600 --> 01:20:23,460
something about ourselves but we're not

1902
01:20:27,180 --> 01:20:24,610
doing it today

1903
01:20:29,580 --> 01:20:27,190
so at best what we can do with the UFOs

1904
01:20:30,959 --> 01:20:29,590
is continue in my mind is to continue to

1905
01:20:32,669 --> 01:20:30,969
investigate to try and figure out what

1906
01:20:34,109 --> 01:20:32,679
they are Stan you already think you know

1907
01:20:35,970 --> 01:20:34,119
what they are you're convinced rather

1908
01:20:38,939 --> 01:20:35,980
that you know what they are so for you

1909
01:20:41,040 --> 01:20:38,949
out more of course yes so for you it's

1910
01:20:42,689 --> 01:20:41,050
it's more of not an investigative thing

1911
01:20:45,359 --> 01:20:42,699
anymore but more of a proponent thing

1912
01:20:47,399 --> 01:20:45,369
trying to convince or show other people

1913
01:20:49,590 --> 01:20:47,409
your point of view which is certainly

1914
01:20:52,470 --> 01:20:49,600
fair but there's there's an awful lot of

1915
01:20:54,840 --> 01:20:52,480
stuff in science was wrong that I think

1916
01:20:56,879 --> 01:20:54,850
is actually very important I think Stan

1917
01:20:58,560 --> 01:20:56,889
it's the best book in the most important

1918
01:21:01,260 --> 01:20:58,570
book that you've either written or

1919
01:21:05,910 --> 01:21:01,270
co-written in your career and thank you

1920
01:21:07,260 --> 01:21:05,920
so much well I am because I've read your

1921
01:21:12,120 --> 01:21:07,270
other books that she wasn't involved in

1922
01:21:13,500 --> 01:21:12,130
and no I'm just kidding do I understand

1923
01:21:16,439 --> 01:21:13,510
right that you wrote chapter 8 the

1924
01:21:18,090 --> 01:21:16,449
hemophilia Holocaust yes I did could you

1925
01:21:19,890 --> 01:21:18,100
could you talk it because this touched

1926
01:21:22,439 --> 01:21:19,900
the para Casa listenership probably

1927
01:21:24,840 --> 01:21:22,449
doesn't know but Pema philia and AIDS

1928
01:21:26,879 --> 01:21:24,850
touched both my family and Stan's family

1929
01:21:29,430 --> 01:21:26,889
which is sort of the same family very

1930
01:21:30,959 --> 01:21:29,440
much one of my cousins Randy Conners was

1931
01:21:33,180 --> 01:21:30,969
the leading AIDS activist and

1932
01:21:35,790 --> 01:21:33,190
hemophiliac here in Canada who died of

1933
01:21:37,590 --> 01:21:35,800
AIDS and the tainted blood transfusion

1934
01:21:40,080 --> 01:21:37,600
sopra perhaps you could talk a bit about

1935
01:21:41,879 --> 01:21:40,090
the hemophilia Holocaust which I found

1936
01:21:44,310 --> 01:21:41,889
one of the most interesting and

1937
01:21:46,950 --> 01:21:44,320
important chapters about how science can

1938
01:21:49,620 --> 01:21:46,960
really go wrong and how there can be

1939
01:21:53,070 --> 01:21:49,630
some very tragic human consequences when

1940
01:21:56,250 --> 01:21:53,080
it does yes this was extremely important

1941
01:21:59,700 --> 01:21:56,260
and I think that a lot of people aren't

1942
01:22:04,590 --> 01:21:59,710
fully aware of the fact that something

1943
01:22:09,090 --> 01:22:04,600
like 78 percent of the hemophiliacs in

1944
01:22:12,080 --> 01:22:09,100
the world ended up with HIV and a very

1945
01:22:15,770 --> 01:22:12,090
large percentage died as a result of

1946
01:22:19,850 --> 01:22:15,780
coming down with full-blown AIDS and

1947
01:22:23,250 --> 01:22:19,860
science was aware of what was going on

1948
01:22:27,300 --> 01:22:23,260
long before anything we've done to

1949
01:22:29,520 --> 01:22:27,310
correct the problem there were incorrect

1950
01:22:33,480 --> 01:22:29,530
assumptions made by the medical

1951
01:22:37,140 --> 01:22:33,490
establishment that it wasn't as violence

1952
01:22:41,250 --> 01:22:37,150
and that it wouldn't pass through the

1953
01:22:45,300 --> 01:22:41,260
filters that were used to to filter out

1954
01:22:48,410 --> 01:22:45,310
contaminants in large batches of factor

1955
01:22:52,740 --> 01:22:48,420
H which is a clotting factor that

1956
01:22:56,550 --> 01:22:52,750
hemophiliacs use and this clotting

1957
01:23:00,240 --> 01:22:56,560
factor was made from thousands and

1958
01:23:02,000 --> 01:23:00,250
thousands of blood samples and some of

1959
01:23:07,590 --> 01:23:02,010
those blood samples were contaminated

1960
01:23:11,190 --> 01:23:07,600
with HIV the the filters would filter

1961
01:23:16,310 --> 01:23:11,200
out bacteria but it didn't filter out

1962
01:23:20,520 --> 01:23:16,320
hepatitis hepatitis C and the HIV virus

1963
01:23:23,550 --> 01:23:20,530
the huge mistake I think was in part

1964
01:23:27,210 --> 01:23:23,560
based upon greed that there was a denial

1965
01:23:31,410 --> 01:23:27,220
that it was a virus that was even

1966
01:23:34,440 --> 01:23:31,420
causing this and it was it really did

1967
01:23:37,100 --> 01:23:34,450
flatten the blood banks and the drug

1968
01:23:40,020 --> 01:23:37,110
companies who were producing factory

1969
01:23:43,980 --> 01:23:40,030
concentrate if were taken off the market

1970
01:23:48,950 --> 01:23:43,990
there would be a huge loss of money and

1971
01:23:53,940 --> 01:23:48,960
so I think that in a sense it was a

1972
01:23:57,510 --> 01:23:53,950
political decision and it was egos were

1973
01:24:01,950 --> 01:23:57,520
involved and I think also that greed was

1974
01:24:04,740 --> 01:24:01,960
a huge factor in this and this is what

1975
01:24:08,130 --> 01:24:04,750
in the end led to so many teal team

1976
01:24:12,540 --> 01:24:08,140
affiliates contracting the the HIV virus

1977
01:24:16,800 --> 01:24:12,550
and dying from it and in the whole

1978
01:24:21,750 --> 01:24:16,810
search for the cause of HIV there was a

1979
01:24:24,060 --> 01:24:21,760
lot of political disagreements going on

1980
01:24:29,040 --> 01:24:24,070
between the scientists who were involved

1981
01:24:33,000 --> 01:24:29,050
each each one had his own cat theory the

1982
01:24:36,370 --> 01:24:33,010
Louis Pasteur Institute in France Luc

1983
01:24:40,060 --> 01:24:36,380
montagnier and Francois Barr

1984
01:24:42,520 --> 01:24:40,070
were working on samples in France and

1985
01:24:45,450 --> 01:24:42,530
those were independent from the samples

1986
01:24:47,950 --> 01:24:45,460
that the United States was working on

1987
01:24:50,890 --> 01:24:47,960
robert gallows laboratory at the

1988
01:24:53,500 --> 01:24:50,900
National Cancer Institute was working on

1989
01:24:58,360 --> 01:24:53,510
samples in the United States Robert

1990
01:25:00,540 --> 01:24:58,370
gallo theorized that this is virus and

1991
01:25:04,840 --> 01:25:00,550
we didn't know what it was called then

1992
01:25:08,890 --> 01:25:04,850
we were calling it grids gay-related

1993
01:25:11,590 --> 01:25:08,900
immune dysfunction and Robert Gallo had

1994
01:25:15,070 --> 01:25:11,600
the idea that this was probably related

1995
01:25:20,440 --> 01:25:15,080
to cat leukemia and thought that it was

1996
01:25:24,070 --> 01:25:20,450
caused by the htlv 3 virus now the past

1997
01:25:28,050 --> 01:25:24,080
year Institute scientists actually were

1998
01:25:30,610 --> 01:25:28,060
the one who identified the virus and

1999
01:25:33,940 --> 01:25:30,620
were able to replicate it in their

2000
01:25:35,950 --> 01:25:33,950
laboratory and finally it lived long

2001
01:25:38,520 --> 01:25:35,960
enough so that they could study this and

2002
01:25:43,330 --> 01:25:38,530
they realized that it was a retrovirus

2003
01:25:47,380 --> 01:25:43,340
they wrote an article they submitted it

2004
01:25:49,360 --> 01:25:47,390
to to nature but nature wouldn't publish

2005
01:25:53,020 --> 01:25:49,370
it and that is part of the failure of

2006
01:25:55,510 --> 01:25:53,030
science I think and a point that I'm

2007
01:25:57,970 --> 01:25:55,520
driving home in the chapters that I

2008
01:26:01,540 --> 01:25:57,980
wrote in this book is that it is

2009
01:26:03,940 --> 01:26:01,550
political in the sense that the medical

2010
01:26:07,180 --> 01:26:03,950
establishment or the scientific

2011
01:26:11,560 --> 01:26:07,190
establishment is controlling in a sense

2012
01:26:14,260 --> 01:26:11,570
what gets into these journals these

2013
01:26:17,470 --> 01:26:14,270
peer-reviewed journals so there's a

2014
01:26:19,840 --> 01:26:17,480
hierarchy here and even though the

2015
01:26:22,840 --> 01:26:19,850
French had made a very significant

2016
01:26:25,690 --> 01:26:22,850
finding and had wanted to publish it

2017
01:26:28,180 --> 01:26:25,700
they were denied to the right to do that

2018
01:26:31,990 --> 01:26:28,190
the only way that this ended up being

2019
01:26:34,690 --> 01:26:32,000
published is that Robert gallo agreed to

2020
01:26:38,110 --> 01:26:34,700
submit the pasture teens research

2021
01:26:39,459 --> 01:26:38,120
findings to science magazine along with

2022
01:26:41,650 --> 01:26:39,469
his own

2023
01:26:45,040 --> 01:26:41,660
and this is how it all came out it ended

2024
01:26:48,040 --> 01:26:45,050
up in a huge political dispute between

2025
01:26:51,760 --> 01:26:48,050
France and the United States we're

2026
01:26:54,250 --> 01:26:51,770
either intentionally or by accident the

2027
01:26:58,959 --> 01:26:54,260
United States ended up with the French

2028
01:27:02,170 --> 01:26:58,969
sample and identified HIV as being their

2029
01:27:05,680 --> 01:27:02,180
own and there was a political

2030
01:27:08,939 --> 01:27:05,690
announcement made by the federal US

2031
01:27:12,850 --> 01:27:08,949
federal government that it had been

2032
01:27:15,630 --> 01:27:12,860
gallows team who had discovered HIV and

2033
01:27:19,270 --> 01:27:15,640
there was a lot of political posturing

2034
01:27:22,180 --> 01:27:19,280
there were lawsuits going on and the

2035
01:27:25,900 --> 01:27:22,190
test for the AIDS virus ended up being

2036
01:27:28,810 --> 01:27:25,910
held up for several months as a result

2037
01:27:30,959 --> 01:27:28,820
of this political dispute that was going

2038
01:27:36,010 --> 01:27:30,969
on between France and the United States

2039
01:27:39,870 --> 01:27:36,020
so in a sense it is politics that has

2040
01:27:42,820 --> 01:27:39,880
interfered with science in many ways and

2041
01:27:46,090 --> 01:27:42,830
thousands of people perhaps millions of

2042
01:27:49,630 --> 01:27:46,100
people have died or been seriously

2043
01:27:51,260 --> 01:27:49,640
negatively impacted by this sort of

2044
01:28:00,260 --> 01:27:51,270
thing

2045
01:28:04,260 --> 01:28:00,270
[Music]

2046
01:28:06,390 --> 01:28:04,270
is there a secret UFO agenda to strange

2047
01:28:08,880 --> 01:28:06,400
creatures from the darkest corners of

2048
01:28:11,520 --> 01:28:08,890
the mind roam the earth is there

2049
01:28:14,790 --> 01:28:11,530
evidence to remind control time travel

2050
01:28:16,650 --> 01:28:14,800
or devious government conspiracies find

2051
01:28:19,620 --> 01:28:16,660
out the inside scoop on the latest

2052
01:28:22,320 --> 01:28:19,630
conspiracies Paranormal Activity and at

2053
01:28:25,050 --> 01:28:22,330
14 phenomena when you subscribe to Tim

2054
01:28:27,690 --> 01:28:25,060
Beckley's conspiracy Turo its jam-packed

2055
01:28:30,150 --> 01:28:27,700
with stories special book and DVD

2056
01:28:32,400 --> 01:28:30,160
promotions and the best news it's

2057
01:28:35,400 --> 01:28:32,410
absolutely free sent right to your

2058
01:28:38,940 --> 01:28:35,410
mailbox plus a bonus free email

2059
01:28:40,800 --> 01:28:38,950
newsletter sent out every Friday simply

2060
01:28:45,780 --> 01:28:40,810
sent an email with your name and address

2061
01:28:50,460 --> 01:28:45,790
do mr. UFO at web TV net attached to mr.

2062
01:28:54,590 --> 01:28:50,470
UFO at web TV net find out what they

2063
01:28:59,469 --> 01:28:56,399
[Music]

2064
01:29:02,480 --> 01:28:59,479
you're in the pair guest you never know

2065
01:29:05,540 --> 01:29:02,490
what's going to have on the mast

2066
01:29:08,700 --> 01:29:05,550
[Applause]

2067
01:29:10,500 --> 01:29:08,710
we have Kathleen Martin and Stanton

2068
01:29:12,510 --> 01:29:10,510
Friedman authors of science was wrong

2069
01:29:15,570 --> 01:29:12,520
Starling truths about cures theories and

2070
01:29:18,960 --> 01:29:15,580
inventions they declared impossible and

2071
01:29:20,730 --> 01:29:18,970
our co-host is Paul Kimball okay the day

2072
01:29:23,310 --> 01:29:20,740
here it seems to be there's so much

2073
01:29:25,740 --> 01:29:23,320
politics in science and you have to

2074
01:29:29,190 --> 01:29:25,750
wonder here we have all the conventional

2075
01:29:31,020 --> 01:29:29,200
wisdoms Kathleen and Stanton we have all

2076
01:29:33,770 --> 01:29:31,030
the existing knowledge we have all the

2077
01:29:36,090 --> 01:29:33,780
textbooks out there we were invested in

2078
01:29:37,380 --> 01:29:36,100
certain areas of knowledge and suddenly

2079
01:29:39,840 --> 01:29:37,390
you find out it's wrong and this is a

2080
01:29:42,900 --> 01:29:39,850
very bad case a horrible case the

2081
01:29:44,760 --> 01:29:42,910
hemophilia Holocaust you call it how do

2082
01:29:47,040 --> 01:29:44,770
we deal with this how do we deal with

2083
01:29:50,760 --> 01:29:47,050
all the politics and science it's messed

2084
01:29:57,600 --> 01:29:50,770
up things so much no boy all right what

2085
01:29:59,220 --> 01:29:57,610
kind of a question is that's what you

2086
01:30:04,380 --> 01:29:59,230
get on the pair cast that you don't get

2087
01:30:07,470 --> 01:30:04,390
on some course the question becomes one

2088
01:30:10,940 --> 01:30:07,480
of how can you use the capabilities that

2089
01:30:13,470 --> 01:30:10,950
are out there to get independent

2090
01:30:16,890 --> 01:30:13,480
evaluations from people who aren't

2091
01:30:18,840 --> 01:30:16,900
directly involved maybe of what's going

2092
01:30:20,490 --> 01:30:18,850
on now that eventually happened with

2093
01:30:22,440 --> 01:30:20,500
regard to Gallo as a matter of fact the

2094
01:30:24,960 --> 01:30:22,450
Nobel Prize was given to the two French

2095
01:30:27,180 --> 01:30:24,970
researchers which was a real slap in the

2096
01:30:30,000 --> 01:30:27,190
face to Gallo you might say although he

2097
01:30:31,830 --> 01:30:30,010
earned it there's nobody speaking in

2098
01:30:34,590 --> 01:30:31,840
this case for example for the

2099
01:30:36,690 --> 01:30:34,600
haemophiliac it's the powers that be

2100
01:30:38,820 --> 01:30:36,700
above that the Red Cross is still

2101
01:30:41,760 --> 01:30:38,830
struggling with they haven't settled the

2102
01:30:45,960 --> 01:30:41,770
suit against them and you saw such

2103
01:30:48,770 --> 01:30:45,970
terrible things as the head of one red

2104
01:30:51,570 --> 01:30:48,780
cross distributor of blood products

2105
01:30:53,190 --> 01:30:51,580
getting back stuff that wasn't heat

2106
01:30:54,750 --> 01:30:53,200
treated which is another part of the

2107
01:30:56,910 --> 01:30:54,760
pictures of Germans had figured that out

2108
01:30:58,920 --> 01:30:56,920
years before that the heat treated you

2109
01:31:03,030 --> 01:30:58,930
got rid of viruses but that was too

2110
01:31:04,560 --> 01:31:03,040
expensive anyway he got back one batch

2111
01:31:06,840 --> 01:31:04,570
from a hospital that was now getting

2112
01:31:09,870 --> 01:31:06,850
heat treated and sent it off to another

2113
01:31:12,060 --> 01:31:09,880
hospital now I don't know what you do to

2114
01:31:14,250 --> 01:31:12,070
get involved you know how do you stop

2115
01:31:16,890 --> 01:31:14,260
things like that from happening because

2116
01:31:17,890 --> 01:31:16,900
it's all done in the dark nobody knows

2117
01:31:19,899 --> 01:31:17,900
about it until

2118
01:31:22,870 --> 01:31:19,909
was a big inquiry in Canada at least

2119
01:31:26,350 --> 01:31:22,880
about how these things happened right

2120
01:31:28,570 --> 01:31:26,360
bothers me so much Stan is not just that

2121
01:31:31,720 --> 01:31:28,580
sometimes science fails to see things

2122
01:31:33,520 --> 01:31:31,730
warning signs but you know nowadays a

2123
01:31:36,220 --> 01:31:33,530
lot of the drug companies spend millions

2124
01:31:39,550 --> 01:31:36,230
and billions of dollars advertising junk

2125
01:31:41,800 --> 01:31:39,560
on TV and you listen to this great

2126
01:31:45,010 --> 01:31:41,810
benefit of this antidepressant whatever

2127
01:31:47,380 --> 01:31:45,020
gets rid of cholesterol controls you

2128
01:31:49,120 --> 01:31:47,390
know restless leg syndrome or anything

2129
01:31:51,220 --> 01:31:49,130
like that and then you hear the

2130
01:31:54,330 --> 01:31:51,230
exceptions the contraindications the

2131
01:31:56,260 --> 01:31:54,340
things that go wrong may cause death

2132
01:32:00,580 --> 01:31:56,270
wait a minute folks

2133
01:32:02,590 --> 01:32:00,590
I'm done with this well a good example

2134
01:32:04,510 --> 01:32:02,600
that you mentioned the cholesterol so if

2135
01:32:07,270 --> 01:32:04,520
there was a study done years ago way

2136
01:32:09,760 --> 01:32:07,280
back in the eighties showing that if you

2137
01:32:11,470 --> 01:32:09,770
took colas tyramine everybody would

2138
01:32:14,260 --> 01:32:11,480
benefit and reducing cholesterol

2139
01:32:16,720 --> 01:32:14,270
everybody above two years old because

2140
01:32:19,270 --> 01:32:16,730
there'd been this you and it will cost

2141
01:32:21,700 --> 01:32:19,280
many millions of dollars to osebo

2142
01:32:23,439 --> 01:32:21,710
controlled double-blind study that

2143
01:32:25,870 --> 01:32:23,449
that's the top of the heap when it comes

2144
01:32:28,330 --> 01:32:25,880
to you know medical evaluations and

2145
01:32:30,640 --> 01:32:28,340
drugs and stuff well I was doing my

2146
01:32:33,490 --> 01:32:30,650
regular weekly science commentary at the

2147
01:32:35,260 --> 01:32:33,500
time and I read the article and I read

2148
01:32:38,020 --> 01:32:35,270
it carefully and listen to the noise

2149
01:32:39,669 --> 01:32:38,030
from the news pundits you know at last

2150
01:32:42,430 --> 01:32:39,679
we've had a breakthrough at cetera et

2151
01:32:45,100 --> 01:32:42,440
cetera well I looked at the article and

2152
01:32:46,750 --> 01:32:45,110
there were two things first of all the

2153
01:32:49,810 --> 01:32:46,760
population that was involved in this

2154
01:32:52,870 --> 01:32:49,820
huge study was very select top 10% of

2155
01:32:54,250 --> 01:32:52,880
cholesterol levels and men over 40 that

2156
01:32:57,090 --> 01:32:54,260
got lost when people were saying

2157
01:32:59,320 --> 01:32:57,100
everybody should take this just because

2158
01:33:00,720 --> 01:32:59,330
diabetics benefit from insulin doesn't

2159
01:33:03,490 --> 01:33:00,730
mean you should give everybody insulin

2160
01:33:06,310 --> 01:33:03,500
seconds might be when you looked at the

2161
01:33:09,010 --> 01:33:06,320
back of the article it turns out there

2162
01:33:10,810 --> 01:33:09,020
were more Ducks from stomach cancer they

2163
01:33:13,240 --> 01:33:10,820
were less from heart disease which was

2164
01:33:15,340 --> 01:33:13,250
the thing they were supposedly most

2165
01:33:17,020 --> 01:33:15,350
concerned with and more from stomach

2166
01:33:20,229 --> 01:33:17,030
cancer I don't know if I want to trade

2167
01:33:23,770 --> 01:33:20,239
that off you know but somebody I don't

2168
01:33:27,129 --> 01:33:23,780
know who didn't do a good job of reading

2169
01:33:28,629 --> 01:33:27,139
the article of vetting the study and I

2170
01:33:30,380 --> 01:33:28,639
learned a ministry that sometimes you

2171
01:33:32,360 --> 01:33:30,390
put stuff up at the beginning you know

2172
01:33:34,760 --> 01:33:32,370
summer the executive summary doesn't

2173
01:33:36,380 --> 01:33:34,770
that sound impressive and you find that

2174
01:33:38,900 --> 01:33:36,390
what's in there isn't justified by the

2175
01:33:42,130 --> 01:33:38,910
data in the report we don't have a good

2176
01:33:45,080 --> 01:33:42,140
mechanism for you know we need a

2177
01:33:47,750 --> 01:33:45,090
consensus team that looks at new stuff

2178
01:33:49,850 --> 01:33:47,760
and comes at it with knives sharpened

2179
01:33:52,550 --> 01:33:49,860
ready to do it carefully and then drug

2180
01:33:54,410 --> 01:33:52,560
companies do worry me they worried me

2181
01:33:59,060 --> 01:33:54,420
considerably and their attacks on me

2182
01:34:01,850 --> 01:33:59,070
none drug none Bible stuff is well let

2183
01:34:05,390 --> 01:34:01,860
me give you a recent example the ginkgo

2184
01:34:09,200 --> 01:34:05,400
biloba has been touted as a way to stave

2185
01:34:11,470 --> 01:34:09,210
off Alzheimer's disease and there was a

2186
01:34:14,390 --> 01:34:11,480
study that got a lot of publicity

2187
01:34:16,160 --> 01:34:14,400
ineffective study shows large study

2188
01:34:17,840 --> 01:34:16,170
showed well I had to read several

2189
01:34:20,030 --> 01:34:17,850
different articles before I can figure

2190
01:34:23,660 --> 01:34:20,040
out well what was the dose because with

2191
01:34:26,570 --> 01:34:23,670
all drugs doses a concern you know how

2192
01:34:27,980 --> 01:34:26,580
much is safe for one thing but and I

2193
01:34:31,340 --> 01:34:27,990
found out that they were talking about

2194
01:34:33,050 --> 01:34:31,350
like 240 million not really milligrams

2195
01:34:34,910 --> 01:34:33,060
for let's call it milligrams for our

2196
01:34:37,210 --> 01:34:34,920
purposes here why don't people are using

2197
01:34:40,040 --> 01:34:37,220
this stuff who take 3 times that much

2198
01:34:42,100 --> 01:34:40,050
normally with the drug you have at least

2199
01:34:45,230 --> 01:34:42,110
three different levels of administration

2200
01:34:48,590 --> 01:34:45,240
so that you can say nothing much happens

2201
01:34:50,960 --> 01:34:48,600
at a hundred but 200 is good and G 400

2202
01:34:53,120 --> 01:34:50,970
is even better and also you look at

2203
01:34:55,190 --> 01:34:53,130
side-effects you know as a function of

2204
01:34:58,070 --> 01:34:55,200
dose because if the side-effects get

2205
01:35:01,730 --> 01:34:58,080
much worse then they better back off

2206
01:35:03,890 --> 01:35:01,740
and so we the press the media the people

2207
01:35:06,640 --> 01:35:03,900
who tout all these things and a lot of

2208
01:35:11,000 --> 01:35:06,650
people working in PR for the drug firms

2209
01:35:13,010 --> 01:35:11,010
aren't paying enough attention to to the

2210
01:35:14,810 --> 01:35:13,020
science if you want to put it that way

2211
01:35:18,260 --> 01:35:14,820
so it's not science that's wrong it's

2212
01:35:20,180 --> 01:35:18,270
the use of science that's wrong good

2213
01:35:21,650 --> 01:35:20,190
fathers mean their ever since that one

2214
01:35:24,710 --> 01:35:21,660
study and then looking at other ones

2215
01:35:26,690 --> 01:35:24,720
very critically and holy cow what are

2216
01:35:28,520 --> 01:35:26,700
they saying here you can't justify that

2217
01:35:30,650 --> 01:35:28,530
conclusion on the data in the report

2218
01:35:33,200 --> 01:35:30,660
well science doesn't exist in an ethical

2219
01:35:35,240 --> 01:35:33,210
vacuum though so you mentioned we we

2220
01:35:38,030 --> 01:35:35,250
talked earlier about or at least he

2221
01:35:39,620 --> 01:35:38,040
briefly came up Verner von braun and the

2222
01:35:42,050 --> 01:35:39,630
fundamental role he played of course in

2223
01:35:43,680 --> 01:35:42,060
the american rocket program more people

2224
01:35:46,500 --> 01:35:43,690
died building the v2

2225
01:35:48,570 --> 01:35:46,510
rockets in Nazi Germany that actually

2226
01:35:51,000 --> 01:35:48,580
died from having v2 rockets dropped on

2227
01:35:52,650 --> 01:35:51,010
top of them so when you look at

2228
01:35:54,450 --> 01:35:52,660
something like her labor kind of right

2229
01:35:56,460 --> 01:35:54,460
exactly yeah when you look at something

2230
01:35:58,650 --> 01:35:56,470
like Verner von Braun he was a member of

2231
01:36:01,350 --> 01:35:58,660
the Nazi Party he was a member of the SS

2232
01:36:04,350 --> 01:36:01,360
and by any standard that I can think of

2233
01:36:05,640 --> 01:36:04,360
he was a war criminal and yeah we took

2234
01:36:08,490 --> 01:36:05,650
you shouldn't have been allowed in the

2235
01:36:10,080 --> 01:36:08,500
country i right that's a political

2236
01:36:12,390 --> 01:36:10,090
decision it's a governmental decision I

2237
01:36:15,300 --> 01:36:12,400
see I understand why they took it but

2238
01:36:18,500 --> 01:36:15,310
that's where science comes up against

2239
01:36:22,470 --> 01:36:18,510
morality comes up against ethics and

2240
01:36:24,270 --> 01:36:22,480
governmental policy it is a huge sort of

2241
01:36:27,060 --> 01:36:24,280
issue and a huge mess and I honestly

2242
01:36:28,350 --> 01:36:27,070
don't think that very many people turn

2243
01:36:30,450 --> 01:36:28,360
their attention to it in our modern

2244
01:36:32,730 --> 01:36:30,460
society and going back to the eugenics

2245
01:36:34,920 --> 01:36:32,740
thing the genetics thing the research

2246
01:36:37,020 --> 01:36:34,930
that's being done in the genetic

2247
01:36:37,440 --> 01:36:37,030
research bioengineering all that sort of

2248
01:36:41,280 --> 01:36:37,450
stuff

2249
01:36:43,230 --> 01:36:41,290
I believe 99% of people don't even think

2250
01:36:45,330 --> 01:36:43,240
about it and what it actually might mean

2251
01:36:47,220 --> 01:36:45,340
for the future of the human race where

2252
01:36:48,630 --> 01:36:47,230
we're going with it I don't think

2253
01:36:52,830 --> 01:36:48,640
they're tuned into it at all

2254
01:36:55,230 --> 01:36:52,840
and so I think that's very yeah well it

2255
01:36:57,810 --> 01:36:55,240
is but then who do we blame when you're

2256
01:36:59,280 --> 01:36:57,820
talking about medications is into my

2257
01:37:01,260 --> 01:36:59,290
mind and and let me know what you think

2258
01:37:03,120 --> 01:37:01,270
about this after the Second World War we

2259
01:37:04,440 --> 01:37:03,130
truly jumped the shark you know you

2260
01:37:06,660 --> 01:37:04,450
often hear the military industrial

2261
01:37:08,550 --> 01:37:06,670
complex you could extend it to the

2262
01:37:11,580 --> 01:37:08,560
corporate military pharmaceutical

2263
01:37:13,140 --> 01:37:11,590
industrial scientific complex where all

2264
01:37:16,590 --> 01:37:13,150
of those things were merged together

2265
01:37:18,540 --> 01:37:16,600
where academia was co-opted during the

2266
01:37:20,490 --> 01:37:18,550
war and after the war you talk about

2267
01:37:22,620 --> 01:37:20,500
Donald Menzel with reference to mj-12

2268
01:37:24,570 --> 01:37:22,630
but you know all of them almost all of

2269
01:37:26,370 --> 01:37:24,580
them were involved some way with the

2270
01:37:28,020 --> 01:37:26,380
government so that now you don't know

2271
01:37:31,110 --> 01:37:28,030
where the government ends the military

2272
01:37:33,180 --> 01:37:31,120
begins corporate begins you know the

2273
01:37:33,870 --> 01:37:33,190
pharmaceuticals begin there also

2274
01:37:36,840 --> 01:37:33,880
intermix

2275
01:37:39,510 --> 01:37:36,850
it's it's like trying to cut the Gordian

2276
01:37:41,400 --> 01:37:39,520
knot and I'm not exactly sure how you do

2277
01:37:43,050 --> 01:37:41,410
it I just think the only way you can do

2278
01:37:45,090 --> 01:37:43,060
it is for citizens to become more aware

2279
01:37:46,710 --> 01:37:45,100
of it which is why I think books like

2280
01:37:48,330 --> 01:37:46,720
yours are important because then they

2281
01:37:51,090 --> 01:37:48,340
can see things like the hemophiliac

2282
01:37:52,860 --> 01:37:51,100
Auster the eugenics movement and see how

2283
01:37:55,020 --> 01:37:52,870
science has been twisted and manipulated

2284
01:37:56,670 --> 01:37:55,030
and how it might be happening now

2285
01:37:57,080 --> 01:37:56,680
without us even knowing about it

2286
01:37:59,540 --> 01:37:57,090
that's

2287
01:38:01,459 --> 01:37:59,550
brief Paul Kimmel editorial but now that

2288
01:38:03,109 --> 01:38:01,469
gene will like this and the pair of cast

2289
01:38:07,700 --> 01:38:03,119
listeners we took a little detour away

2290
01:38:09,919 --> 01:38:07,710
from UFOs Stan UFOs politicization the

2291
01:38:12,070 --> 01:38:09,929
Condon report is the Condon committee

2292
01:38:13,970 --> 01:38:12,080
the Condon report the ultimate example

2293
01:38:16,250 --> 01:38:13,980
and perhaps you can talk a bit about

2294
01:38:18,290 --> 01:38:16,260
Condon of how the UFO subject was

2295
01:38:21,229 --> 01:38:18,300
politicized how government stepped in

2296
01:38:29,330 --> 01:38:21,239
and skewed the results if you will

2297
01:38:29,810 --> 01:38:29,340
before we have those results for 58

2298
01:38:32,060 --> 01:38:29,820
years

2299
01:38:34,609 --> 01:38:32,070
fate has provided true reports of the

2300
01:38:36,950 --> 01:38:34,619
strange and unknown fate brings you the

2301
01:38:38,930 --> 01:38:36,960
latest in all aspects of the paranormal

2302
01:38:42,260 --> 01:38:38,940
like angels and miracles psychic

2303
01:38:44,540 --> 01:38:42,270
phenomena ghosts UFOs and much much more

2304
01:38:47,030 --> 01:38:44,550
to receive your complimentary fate

2305
01:38:51,290 --> 01:38:47,040
magazine call now at one eight hundred

2306
01:38:55,189 --> 01:38:51,300
seven two eight two seven three oh or

2307
01:38:57,459 --> 01:38:55,199
visit their website at WWF at mag com

2308
01:39:04,580 --> 01:38:57,469
that's one eight hundred seven two eight

2309
01:39:07,540 --> 01:39:04,590
two seven three zero or WWF a TEM AG

2310
01:39:19,529 --> 01:39:07,550
calm what are you waiting for your fate

2311
01:39:24,939 --> 01:39:22,239
you're in the parish a co-host is Paul

2312
01:39:27,669 --> 01:39:24,949
Kimball we're talking to Cathleen Martin

2313
01:39:29,830 --> 01:39:27,679
and Stanton T Friedman they have a new

2314
01:39:32,049 --> 01:39:29,840
book out called science was wrong

2315
01:39:34,839 --> 01:39:32,059
Starling truths about cures theories and

2316
01:39:37,299 --> 01:39:34,849
inventions they declared impossible

2317
01:39:40,029 --> 01:39:37,309
okay Stanton Friedman let's talk about

2318
01:39:42,520 --> 01:39:40,039
Condon well yeah and Kathy you'll have

2319
01:39:44,560 --> 01:39:42,530
something to say too here because she

2320
01:39:48,040 --> 01:39:44,570
particularly called attention to one of

2321
01:39:50,949 --> 01:39:48,050
the memos that was written early in the

2322
01:39:52,179 --> 01:39:50,959
Condon study in effect saying we don't

2323
01:39:54,009 --> 01:39:52,189
want to but we're going to look like

2324
01:39:56,109 --> 01:39:54,019
we're being scientific but we know

2325
01:39:58,299 --> 01:39:56,119
there's nothing to this so we should

2326
01:40:00,129 --> 01:39:58,309
give the appearance of being scientific

2327
01:40:01,600 --> 01:40:00,139
but let's funny the people report

2328
01:40:03,729 --> 01:40:01,610
sightings let's not look at the

2329
01:40:06,520 --> 01:40:03,739
sightings themselves I have mixed

2330
01:40:08,529 --> 01:40:06,530
feelings about Condon he was gutsy when

2331
01:40:11,350 --> 01:40:08,539
he worked for the government he was

2332
01:40:14,889 --> 01:40:11,360
called up for hearings himself and he

2333
01:40:17,319 --> 01:40:14,899
stood up against them but it's clear he

2334
01:40:20,259 --> 01:40:17,329
didn't take the subject seriously and

2335
01:40:22,029 --> 01:40:20,269
whether it was on his own the choice or

2336
01:40:24,850 --> 01:40:22,039
whether he was operating under

2337
01:40:27,310 --> 01:40:24,860
instructions I don't know but what was

2338
01:40:29,979 --> 01:40:27,320
really distressing with the publicity

2339
01:40:31,929 --> 01:40:29,989
given to the report making it sound as

2340
01:40:35,139 --> 01:40:31,939
if here was this great scientific study

2341
01:40:37,359 --> 01:40:35,149
the National Academy of Sciences stood

2342
01:40:39,429 --> 01:40:37,369
behind it he's a member one should note

2343
01:40:41,649 --> 01:40:39,439
and that's a self electing buddy a body

2344
01:40:44,439 --> 01:40:41,659
so you don't expect him to speak out

2345
01:40:46,600 --> 01:40:44,449
against one of their own they can

2346
01:40:49,299 --> 01:40:46,610
blackballed others being brought on and

2347
01:40:51,729 --> 01:40:49,309
so forth I don't know where what went on

2348
01:40:54,250 --> 01:40:51,739
in the background but it certainly set

2349
01:40:56,679 --> 01:40:54,260
the stage for a massive attack on the

2350
01:40:59,409 --> 01:40:56,689
part of the media on the whole question

2351
01:41:01,689 --> 01:40:59,419
of UFOs nycap folded partly because of

2352
01:41:04,270 --> 01:41:01,699
that and it kept people away from

2353
01:41:06,759 --> 01:41:04,280
research even though it was mentioned

2354
01:41:09,100 --> 01:41:06,769
sort of in passing it's a 965 page

2355
01:41:10,689 --> 01:41:09,110
report in paperback and a big thing

2356
01:41:12,580 --> 01:41:10,699
there's a comment in there that

2357
01:41:15,310 --> 01:41:12,590
appropriate research maybe ought to be

2358
01:41:18,250 --> 01:41:15,320
supported but Condon

2359
01:41:20,469 --> 01:41:18,260
he had his biases his strong biases and

2360
01:41:22,270 --> 01:41:20,479
this whole subject I mean the way Dave

2361
01:41:25,750 --> 01:41:22,280
Saunders was fired and all that sort of

2362
01:41:27,699 --> 01:41:25,760
stuff yeah it's in the open sort of what

2363
01:41:30,459 --> 01:41:27,709
happened with the Robertson panel back

2364
01:41:31,390 --> 01:41:30,469
in 1953 where they said you know we

2365
01:41:34,350 --> 01:41:31,400
should strip this

2366
01:41:36,700 --> 01:41:34,360
the subject of it's the cover of

2367
01:41:38,470 --> 01:41:36,710
respectability if you will let's let's

2368
01:41:41,170 --> 01:41:38,480
go to Disney and others to make sure

2369
01:41:42,850 --> 01:41:41,180
people don't get involved and you know

2370
01:41:44,140 --> 01:41:42,860
the funny part is that there are some

2371
01:41:46,390 --> 01:41:44,150
people who have told me that they got

2372
01:41:48,730 --> 01:41:46,400
interested in UFOs because of the Condon

2373
01:41:51,700 --> 01:41:48,740
report because after all 30 percent of

2374
01:41:54,010 --> 01:41:51,710
117 cases cited in detail could be

2375
01:41:56,020 --> 01:41:54,020
identified you know we were talking

2376
01:41:57,880 --> 01:41:56,030
about drugs before any drug company

2377
01:42:01,030 --> 01:41:57,890
would love if they looked at hundred and

2378
01:42:04,660 --> 01:42:01,040
seventeen drugs and only 30% were

2379
01:42:07,060 --> 01:42:04,670
usefully be delighted it's a strange

2380
01:42:09,730 --> 01:42:07,070
world and the Condon was certainly the

2381
01:42:13,000 --> 01:42:09,740
the Condon report was the epitome of

2382
01:42:15,450 --> 01:42:13,010
strangeness science functioning in this

2383
01:42:18,190 --> 01:42:15,460
business what's really strange

2384
01:42:20,560 --> 01:42:18,200
particularly strange is how some people

2385
01:42:22,540 --> 01:42:20,570
have claimed Susan Clancy who was

2386
01:42:25,090 --> 01:42:22,550
attacked UFO abductions and got

2387
01:42:27,610 --> 01:42:25,100
everything wrong in her book says the

2388
01:42:30,010 --> 01:42:27,620
Condon report was a review of Project

2389
01:42:31,480 --> 01:42:30,020
Blue Book cases it wasn't at all they

2390
01:42:33,460 --> 01:42:31,490
looked at the old cases

2391
01:42:34,840 --> 01:42:33,470
it was egregious there's not even a

2392
01:42:36,640 --> 01:42:34,850
mention of the largest study ever done

2393
01:42:38,860 --> 01:42:36,650
by the government in the chapter about

2394
01:42:41,440 --> 01:42:38,870
government involvement blue book special

2395
01:42:44,320 --> 01:42:41,450
report 14 totally ignored we know about

2396
01:42:46,150 --> 01:42:44,330
I can throw them about and my letter was

2397
01:42:47,580 --> 01:42:46,160
acknowledged see that was a long time

2398
01:42:50,980 --> 01:42:47,590
ago

2399
01:42:52,570 --> 01:42:50,990
we traveled down memory lane and I think

2400
01:42:53,410 --> 01:42:52,580
gene will would be the first one to tell

2401
01:42:56,740 --> 01:42:53,420
you that we're sort of in the

2402
01:42:58,660 --> 01:42:56,750
homestretch right gene homestretch we've

2403
01:43:02,500 --> 01:42:58,670
got maybe 17 minutes left

2404
01:43:04,390 --> 01:43:02,510
you two are experts on the and I mean no

2405
01:43:06,700 --> 01:43:04,400
offense when I say alleged alien

2406
01:43:08,350 --> 01:43:06,710
abduction stories because I have a

2407
01:43:10,540 --> 01:43:08,360
different view on maybe what the

2408
01:43:12,970 --> 01:43:10,550
abduction phenomenon or enigma means but

2409
01:43:15,850 --> 01:43:12,980
you guys wrote the book obviously

2410
01:43:18,100 --> 01:43:15,860
closely related no pun intended to the

2411
01:43:19,960 --> 01:43:18,110
Betty and Barney Hill story as you may

2412
01:43:22,380 --> 01:43:19,970
or may not see I you're not the only

2413
01:43:25,390 --> 01:43:22,390
funding member of the family Stan so I

2414
01:43:27,100 --> 01:43:25,400
learned from you it's that 50 stuff with

2415
01:43:29,770 --> 01:43:27,110
any young men at all that David Jacobs

2416
01:43:33,040 --> 01:43:29,780
has come under a tremendous amount of

2417
01:43:36,040 --> 01:43:33,050
fire recently for his relationship to a

2418
01:43:39,070 --> 01:43:36,050
particular patient known as Emma Woods

2419
01:43:41,650 --> 01:43:39,080
that's a pseudonym but it sort of opened

2420
01:43:43,540 --> 01:43:41,660
up on a number of Internet podcasts

2421
01:43:44,060 --> 01:43:43,550
radio shows the message forms I don't

2422
01:43:46,640 --> 01:43:44,070
know whether you're

2423
01:43:48,500 --> 01:43:46,650
this or not but the general topic of

2424
01:43:50,270 --> 01:43:48,510
alien abductions the abduction

2425
01:43:52,220 --> 01:43:50,280
phenomenon and also the use of hypnosis

2426
01:43:55,070 --> 01:43:52,230
in recovering memories

2427
01:43:57,380 --> 01:43:55,080
so perhaps you Kathy or you Stan or both

2428
01:44:00,650 --> 01:43:57,390
of you could talk about where you stand

2429
01:44:02,510 --> 01:44:00,660
on the use of hypnosis in terms of

2430
01:44:05,000 --> 01:44:02,520
recovering memories in particular

2431
01:44:07,340 --> 01:44:05,010
relating to the alien abduction enigma

2432
01:44:09,230 --> 01:44:07,350
but obviously it relates to things

2433
01:44:11,600 --> 01:44:09,240
beyond just that as well so talk a bit

2434
01:44:15,190 --> 01:44:11,610
about that if you could very very

2435
01:44:18,290 --> 01:44:15,200
cautious about the use of hypnosis in

2436
01:44:21,890 --> 01:44:18,300
recovering abduction memories and the

2437
01:44:24,800 --> 01:44:21,900
reason for that is that when hypnosis

2438
01:44:29,060 --> 01:44:24,810
was used I really believe that we need

2439
01:44:32,210 --> 01:44:29,070
someone like dr. Benjamin Simon to use

2440
01:44:34,910 --> 01:44:32,220
it someone who is highly qualified dr.

2441
01:44:37,130 --> 01:44:34,920
Simon worked with shell-shocked victims

2442
01:44:39,980 --> 01:44:37,140
during World War two

2443
01:44:42,800 --> 01:44:39,990
he was the chief psychiatrist who set up

2444
01:44:44,810 --> 01:44:42,810
the did psychiatry department at Mason

2445
01:44:48,290 --> 01:44:44,820
General Hospital on Long Island New York

2446
01:44:51,680 --> 01:44:48,300
to treat returning shell-shocked victims

2447
01:44:54,860 --> 01:44:51,690
and he was very successful in what he

2448
01:44:58,340 --> 01:44:54,870
did primarily because he looked for

2449
01:45:00,680 --> 01:44:58,350
other reasons to explain what had

2450
01:45:03,800 --> 01:45:00,690
happened to these soldiers he wasn't

2451
01:45:06,350 --> 01:45:03,810
happy with the first explanation that

2452
01:45:09,200 --> 01:45:06,360
came out under hypnosis and he looked

2453
01:45:11,840 --> 01:45:09,210
for that also and when he hypnotized

2454
01:45:14,630 --> 01:45:11,850
Betty and Barney Hill and he did that

2455
01:45:18,260 --> 01:45:14,640
separately and I think that the only

2456
01:45:21,740 --> 01:45:18,270
reason it came to that point is because

2457
01:45:23,750 --> 01:45:21,750
of all of the evidence Betty and Barney

2458
01:45:27,620 --> 01:45:23,760
and I'm going to use that example

2459
01:45:31,100 --> 01:45:27,630
because it is the one that I spent 15

2460
01:45:33,620 --> 01:45:31,110
years researching and because they are

2461
01:45:38,060 --> 01:45:33,630
part of my fuller part of my family sure

2462
01:45:41,330 --> 01:45:38,070
now Betty and Bonnie had clear conscious

2463
01:45:45,650 --> 01:45:41,340
recollection of a close encounter with

2464
01:45:48,560 --> 01:45:45,660
an unconventional large silent

2465
01:45:51,410 --> 01:45:48,570
saucer-shaped flying object

2466
01:45:54,500 --> 01:45:51,420
it moved in a type of flight pattern

2467
01:45:57,560 --> 01:45:54,510
that was uncharacteristic of anything

2468
01:46:00,770 --> 01:45:57,570
that they had ever observed before

2469
01:46:04,189 --> 01:46:00,780
they had physical evidence that

2470
01:46:07,819 --> 01:46:04,199
something had happened to them when they

2471
01:46:11,209 --> 01:46:07,829
returned home and that was after Barney

2472
01:46:15,500 --> 01:46:11,219
had walked into a field and observed

2473
01:46:19,939 --> 01:46:15,510
what he described as non-human entities

2474
01:46:23,510 --> 01:46:19,949
on board that craft and their precision

2475
01:46:26,270 --> 01:46:23,520
of movement frightened him terribly it

2476
01:46:28,189 --> 01:46:26,280
was the fact that when he returned to

2477
01:46:30,290 --> 01:46:28,199
the car when he was finally able to

2478
01:46:33,020 --> 01:46:30,300
break away from this craft that was

2479
01:46:36,319 --> 01:46:33,030
hovering only between fifty and a

2480
01:46:39,379 --> 01:46:36,329
hundred feet above him and something was

2481
01:46:41,569 --> 01:46:39,389
dropping out of the bottom of it and he

2482
01:46:44,510 --> 01:46:41,579
became so frightened that he was able to

2483
01:46:47,089 --> 01:46:44,520
break away and run back to the car and

2484
01:46:50,450 --> 01:46:47,099
what Betty described is practically a

2485
01:46:52,970 --> 01:46:50,460
hysterical State both laughing and

2486
01:46:54,800 --> 01:46:52,980
crying at the same time saying he was

2487
01:46:57,379 --> 01:46:54,810
afraid they were going to be captured

2488
01:47:00,470 --> 01:46:57,389
and I want to mention that Betty

2489
01:47:03,319 --> 01:47:00,480
inviting you very very little about UFOs

2490
01:47:05,510 --> 01:47:03,329
before this incident it wasn't something

2491
01:47:07,970 --> 01:47:05,520
that they talked about or that the

2492
01:47:10,729 --> 01:47:07,980
family really spent any time talking

2493
01:47:13,370 --> 01:47:10,739
about so they were not anticipating of

2494
01:47:15,950 --> 01:47:13,380
flying saucers fighting or an abduction

2495
01:47:16,640 --> 01:47:15,960
we weren't aware that anyone had been

2496
01:47:20,990 --> 01:47:16,650
abducted

2497
01:47:24,319 --> 01:47:21,000
before that sorry not on that point

2498
01:47:26,390 --> 01:47:24,329
having skeptics of the hill case alleged

2499
01:47:27,919 --> 01:47:26,400
that Betty in particular had a

2500
01:47:35,000 --> 01:47:27,929
pre-existing interest in the UFO

2501
01:47:38,419 --> 01:47:35,010
phenomenon claims made about Betty and

2502
01:47:41,149 --> 01:47:38,429
Barney by skeptics and that is one of

2503
01:47:43,250 --> 01:47:41,159
the false claims yes okay good sorry I

2504
01:47:44,899 --> 01:47:43,260
just wanted to address that because I I

2505
01:47:46,760 --> 01:47:44,909
wasn't sure whether I had heard that but

2506
01:47:48,770 --> 01:47:46,770
I thought I had so you're saying she

2507
01:47:50,450 --> 01:47:48,780
didn't have any real interest in the UFO

2508
01:47:52,700 --> 01:47:50,460
phenomenon before they know that is

2509
01:47:55,819 --> 01:47:52,710
correct and I have checked that with

2510
01:47:58,689 --> 01:47:55,829
friends and with family members in

2511
01:48:02,419 --> 01:47:58,699
addition to asking Betty about that

2512
01:48:04,970 --> 01:48:02,429
attach all of them unanimously have said

2513
01:48:08,089 --> 01:48:04,980
that no she did not have an interest in

2514
01:48:08,990 --> 01:48:08,099
flying saucers before this sighting the

2515
01:48:15,200 --> 01:48:09,000
only thing

2516
01:48:18,080 --> 01:48:15,210
that I do know about is that in 1957 my

2517
01:48:23,450 --> 01:48:18,090
mother was traveling at night and she

2518
01:48:25,760 --> 01:48:23,460
saw a large blimp shaped craft with

2519
01:48:29,720 --> 01:48:25,770
silence it was hovering over a field and

2520
01:48:32,180 --> 01:48:29,730
smaller craft were flying into it this

2521
01:48:34,580 --> 01:48:32,190
was a multiple witness sighting my

2522
01:48:37,190 --> 01:48:34,590
mother did mention that to the family

2523
01:48:38,780 --> 01:48:37,200
she mentioned it to Betty and Bonnie it

2524
01:48:41,570 --> 01:48:38,790
was the first that they had heard about

2525
01:48:43,640 --> 01:48:41,580
anything like this and Barney didn't

2526
01:48:46,700 --> 01:48:43,650
believe it you know so that is only

2527
01:48:48,560 --> 01:48:46,710
incident that I'm aware of where flying

2528
01:48:53,510 --> 01:48:48,570
saucers were ever discussed by the

2529
01:48:56,510 --> 01:48:53,520
family before 1961 in September after

2530
01:48:59,360 --> 01:48:56,520
Betty and Bonnie's close encounter that

2531
01:49:02,300 --> 01:48:59,370
period of missing time there our arrival

2532
01:49:04,400 --> 01:49:02,310
home to find that Betty's dress was torn

2533
01:49:06,440 --> 01:49:04,410
and I think that that's significant and

2534
01:49:09,500 --> 01:49:06,450
I think it's something that is often

2535
01:49:12,800 --> 01:49:09,510
left out the top of her zipper and this

2536
01:49:15,140 --> 01:49:12,810
was a fairly new dress it was torn 1

2537
01:49:17,800 --> 01:49:15,150
inch in the fabric on one side and

2538
01:49:21,800 --> 01:49:17,810
almost 2 inches on the other side

2539
01:49:25,250 --> 01:49:21,810
explained how that could happen when she

2540
01:49:27,980 --> 01:49:25,260
was simply seated in her vehicle riding

2541
01:49:31,220 --> 01:49:27,990
home the lining was torn from waist the

2542
01:49:34,400 --> 01:49:31,230
hemline the hem was torn down the tops

2543
01:49:36,770 --> 01:49:34,410
of Barney's shoes were so badly scraped

2544
01:49:38,480 --> 01:49:36,780
that he had to wear them for yard work

2545
01:49:40,370 --> 01:49:38,490
after that and these were in the best

2546
01:49:42,830 --> 01:49:40,380
dress shoes so there was a well-dressed

2547
01:49:44,810 --> 01:49:42,840
guy incidentally he was careful about

2548
01:49:47,450 --> 01:49:44,820
his appearance okay I think the issue

2549
01:49:51,230 --> 01:49:47,460
that has been raised in the discussions

2550
01:49:55,220 --> 01:49:51,240
here is whether hypnotic regression has

2551
01:49:57,950 --> 01:49:55,230
a value can recover real memories or has

2552
01:49:59,930 --> 01:49:57,960
the danger of implanting memories you

2553
01:50:03,590 --> 01:49:59,940
don't want to be there well I think that

2554
01:50:05,750 --> 01:50:03,600
in the case where there is the kind of

2555
01:50:10,940 --> 01:50:05,760
physical evidence where there is this

2556
01:50:15,140 --> 01:50:10,950
kind of memory and 40% of abduction

2557
01:50:17,390 --> 01:50:15,150
cases involve conscious memory of a

2558
01:50:20,930 --> 01:50:17,400
close encounter with a craft and

2559
01:50:22,320 --> 01:50:20,940
oftentimes observing non-human entities

2560
01:50:26,400 --> 01:50:22,330
on board that

2561
01:50:30,510 --> 01:50:26,410
so in those cases I do believe that

2562
01:50:34,890 --> 01:50:30,520
hypnosis is a value as an investigative

2563
01:50:38,130 --> 01:50:34,900
tool I can't say that I believe that it

2564
01:50:43,350 --> 01:50:38,140
helps anybody any witness or any

2565
01:50:45,480 --> 01:50:43,360
abductee in healing whatever wounds they

2566
01:50:48,200 --> 01:50:45,490
have psychological wounds they have

2567
01:50:52,170 --> 01:50:48,210
received as a result of having been

2568
01:50:56,340 --> 01:50:52,180
abducted to me I I would compare that to

2569
01:51:00,480 --> 01:50:56,350
a rape in a sense of being captured and

2570
01:51:02,850 --> 01:51:00,490
raped and then released and with amnesia

2571
01:51:05,850 --> 01:51:02,860
in a sense I don't think that it's the

2572
01:51:08,790 --> 01:51:05,860
useful tool in helping individuals

2573
01:51:11,730 --> 01:51:08,800
recover from the trauma they experienced

2574
01:51:15,300 --> 01:51:11,740
as a result of this but as an

2575
01:51:19,020 --> 01:51:15,310
investigative tool yes if you have more

2576
01:51:22,530 --> 01:51:19,030
than one witness I don't think that it's

2577
01:51:25,890 --> 01:51:22,540
a good tool to use unless you have more

2578
01:51:30,180 --> 01:51:25,900
than one witness unless you have such as

2579
01:51:34,440 --> 01:51:30,190
Budd Hopkins had and that is information

2580
01:51:36,330 --> 01:51:34,450
about grip that was observed onboard the

2581
01:51:38,760 --> 01:51:36,340
craft by a number of different

2582
01:51:41,070 --> 01:51:38,770
individuals and this was part of a

2583
01:51:43,290 --> 01:51:41,080
university study that involves Stewart

2584
01:51:46,680 --> 01:51:43,300
Appel and don don Dury

2585
01:51:48,210 --> 01:51:46,690
from McGill Appel is from State

2586
01:51:51,990 --> 01:51:48,220
University of New York

2587
01:51:55,790 --> 01:51:52,000
Tamara la grandeur and they did a very

2588
01:52:00,390 --> 01:51:55,800
interesting study where all of this

2589
01:52:03,560 --> 01:52:00,400
script was was drawn by the individuals

2590
01:52:06,390 --> 01:52:03,570
who recalls seeing it on board the craft

2591
01:52:09,170 --> 01:52:06,400
separately every it was done in a

2592
01:52:11,820 --> 01:52:09,180
controlled environment there was also

2593
01:52:14,190 --> 01:52:11,830
another group an experimental group

2594
01:52:18,960 --> 01:52:14,200
where graduate students were hypnotized

2595
01:52:22,160 --> 01:52:18,970
and cause they were cause to confabulate

2596
01:52:25,500 --> 01:52:22,170
a UFO abduction and to confabulate

2597
01:52:29,580 --> 01:52:25,510
observing script on board the craft and

2598
01:52:33,090 --> 01:52:29,590
then to write that down and the result

2599
01:52:34,060 --> 01:52:33,100
was after all of this was was analyzed

2600
01:52:38,260 --> 01:52:34,070
on a 3d

2601
01:52:42,339 --> 01:52:38,270
national basis that bought Hopkins and

2602
01:52:44,680 --> 01:52:42,349
the experimenters aliens the abductees

2603
01:52:47,589 --> 01:52:44,690
the ones that they believed really had

2604
01:52:50,109 --> 01:52:47,599
been abducted had certain

2605
01:52:53,580 --> 01:52:50,119
characteristics that were totally

2606
01:52:56,500 --> 01:52:53,590
different from anything that had been

2607
01:53:00,459 --> 01:52:56,510
confabulated and written by the graduate

2608
01:53:02,800 --> 01:53:00,469
students and as a result of this and the

2609
01:53:06,540 --> 01:53:02,810
fact that there was so much correlating

2610
01:53:10,569 --> 01:53:06,550
data with the Hopkins group the

2611
01:53:13,629 --> 01:53:10,579
scientific team came to the conclusion

2612
01:53:16,750 --> 01:53:13,639
that this might indicate that alien

2613
01:53:19,930 --> 01:53:16,760
abduction is real so in that sense I

2614
01:53:22,240 --> 01:53:19,940
think that it is it is useful okay well

2615
01:53:24,069 --> 01:53:22,250
obviously don't have time to cover this

2616
01:53:25,870 --> 01:53:24,079
in complete detail I think there's one

2617
01:53:27,339 --> 01:53:25,880
more question and we're not here to

2618
01:53:30,899 --> 01:53:27,349
insult anybody but just raise it

2619
01:53:32,890 --> 01:53:30,909
shouldn't this kind of therapy or

2620
01:53:35,160 --> 01:53:32,900
investigation be done by a trained

2621
01:53:38,290 --> 01:53:35,170
professional rather than a layman

2622
01:53:40,149 --> 01:53:38,300
absolutely I believe it should be that's

2623
01:53:41,890 --> 01:53:40,159
what Simon puts into the picture was

2624
01:53:45,459 --> 01:53:41,900
aggravating to me to hear some of the

2625
01:53:46,930 --> 01:53:45,469
sessions on tape and what he asked and I

2626
01:53:48,850 --> 01:53:46,940
wish why didn't he answer this question

2627
01:53:51,129 --> 01:53:48,860
or that question and then I realized

2628
01:53:53,830 --> 01:53:51,139
that you know I'm glad that he didn't

2629
01:53:56,350 --> 01:53:53,840
know anything about UFOs he could stand

2630
01:53:57,850 --> 01:53:56,360
off and try to get at what was going on

2631
01:54:00,339 --> 01:53:57,860
and I think we should mention that

2632
01:54:02,280 --> 01:54:00,349
Kathy's analysis and captured the very

2633
01:54:04,930 --> 01:54:02,290
important Hill UFO experience her book

2634
01:54:07,720 --> 01:54:04,940
comparative analysis of what Barney said

2635
01:54:09,640 --> 01:54:07,730
what Betty said under hypnosis and Betty

2636
01:54:12,550 --> 01:54:09,650
screams which have often been dragged

2637
01:54:15,270 --> 01:54:12,560
into the discussion shows that when they

2638
01:54:18,129 --> 01:54:15,280
work together their descriptions match

2639
01:54:20,649 --> 01:54:18,139
that there were independent confirmation

2640
01:54:23,200 --> 01:54:20,659
of each other in other words and so

2641
01:54:24,939 --> 01:54:23,210
Simon was very good for that job and

2642
01:54:27,580 --> 01:54:24,949
incidentally some people think there was

2643
01:54:29,439 --> 01:54:27,590
only one hypnosis session Carl Sagan

2644
01:54:31,899 --> 01:54:29,449
implied that in the big article he wrote

2645
01:54:33,910 --> 01:54:31,909
there were ten sessions Kathy has

2646
01:54:37,149 --> 01:54:33,920
transcribed them all which wasn't done

2647
01:54:39,590 --> 01:54:37,159
in the first book the UFO entered was on

2648
01:54:42,270 --> 01:54:39,600
Fuller's book

2649
01:54:43,500 --> 01:54:42,280
and Paul has a question no I was just

2650
01:54:46,500 --> 01:54:43,510
gonna say I think the point that you're

2651
01:54:48,300 --> 01:54:46,510
making is that hypnosis under the proper

2652
01:54:50,520 --> 01:54:48,310
circumstances done by a trained

2653
01:54:53,190 --> 01:54:50,530
professional on a limited basis for a

2654
01:54:55,560 --> 01:54:53,200
limited purpose can be potentially a

2655
01:54:57,300 --> 01:54:55,570
useful investigative tool which there's

2656
01:54:59,190 --> 01:54:57,310
a lot of hedges and caveat s' there and

2657
01:55:01,650 --> 01:54:59,200
I wouldn't disagree with that the

2658
01:55:03,900 --> 01:55:01,660
problem that I have is that modern

2659
01:55:05,100 --> 01:55:03,910
abduction research and correct me if I'm

2660
01:55:07,410 --> 01:55:05,110
wrong Kathy but I remember reading

2661
01:55:08,430 --> 01:55:07,420
somewhere that Betty Hill once said that

2662
01:55:10,140 --> 01:55:08,440
she didn't think much of modern

2663
01:55:13,980 --> 01:55:10,150
abduction research in the overuse of

2664
01:55:15,930 --> 01:55:13,990
hypnosis they that people like Budd

2665
01:55:19,080 --> 01:55:15,940
Hopkins and David Jacobs have relied far

2666
01:55:21,600 --> 01:55:19,090
too much on on hypnosis to try and

2667
01:55:22,860 --> 01:55:21,610
retrieve memories so that to me there is

2668
01:55:24,450 --> 01:55:22,870
a there is a difference and I think

2669
01:55:26,130 --> 01:55:24,460
maybe now that the backlash you're

2670
01:55:27,540 --> 01:55:26,140
seeing against and I don't know if you

2671
01:55:29,550 --> 01:55:27,550
too are aware of it seeing against

2672
01:55:32,160 --> 01:55:29,560
abduction research on the internet a lot

2673
01:55:34,020 --> 01:55:32,170
of podcasts I am aware yeah I think I

2674
01:55:36,150 --> 01:55:34,030
think it is a backlash and I think maybe

2675
01:55:37,920 --> 01:55:36,160
it's going too far I I'm not sure you

2676
01:55:39,690 --> 01:55:37,930
should throw hypnosis out completely as

2677
01:55:42,150 --> 01:55:39,700
a tool but there are an awful lot of

2678
01:55:44,760 --> 01:55:42,160
caveats that you have to attach to it so

2679
01:55:47,160 --> 01:55:44,770
what and and I would say you know with

2680
01:55:48,630 --> 01:55:47,170
that caveat folks look at that gene now

2681
01:55:50,550 --> 01:55:48,640
tell me is this where I start plugging

2682
01:55:53,040 --> 01:55:50,560
their book you know what I think I don't

2683
01:55:55,170 --> 01:55:53,050
have an idea here guys Cathleen Martin

2684
01:55:56,880 --> 01:55:55,180
and Stan Freedman I wish we had eight

2685
01:55:58,830 --> 01:55:56,890
hours that we can spend for you and

2686
01:56:01,410 --> 01:55:58,840
unfortunately it doesn't work that way

2687
01:56:03,180 --> 01:56:01,420
in radio so you know what you have a

2688
01:56:03,720 --> 01:56:03,190
couple of minutes guys who wants to take

2689
01:56:06,960 --> 01:56:03,730
it first

2690
01:56:09,630 --> 01:56:06,970
I don't stand is really ace at plugging

2691
01:56:13,320 --> 01:56:09,640
books Kathleen why don't you start tell

2692
01:56:15,420 --> 01:56:13,330
us about the book where you can purchase

2693
01:56:17,610 --> 01:56:15,430
the book well no we know about that but

2694
01:56:19,320 --> 01:56:17,620
how about tell us about the book a quick

2695
01:56:20,460 --> 01:56:19,330
summary a couple minutes summary about

2696
01:56:23,310 --> 01:56:20,470
it okay

2697
01:56:26,070 --> 01:56:23,320
well science was wrong is you can

2698
01:56:30,660 --> 01:56:26,080
comprise those five different sections

2699
01:56:34,200 --> 01:56:30,670
with 14 chapters about various aspects

2700
01:56:36,960 --> 01:56:34,210
of scientific developments over the past

2701
01:56:40,200 --> 01:56:36,970
hundred and fifty years or so that have

2702
01:56:43,440 --> 01:56:40,210
been essentially rejected by the

2703
01:56:47,130 --> 01:56:43,450
scientific establishment often for

2704
01:56:48,990 --> 01:56:47,140
political reasons often due to ego often

2705
01:56:52,290 --> 01:56:49,000
due to greed

2706
01:56:55,940 --> 01:56:52,300
all of those have that those particular

2707
01:56:59,100 --> 01:56:55,950
things in common but in the end and

2708
01:57:02,370 --> 01:56:59,110
sometimes it took years and years and

2709
01:57:04,800 --> 01:57:02,380
years for these theories for these

2710
01:57:08,730 --> 01:57:04,810
developments to be recognized as being

2711
01:57:12,630 --> 01:57:08,740
correct and to the great detriment of

2712
01:57:15,750 --> 01:57:12,640
society and in some instances thousands

2713
01:57:19,950 --> 01:57:15,760
if not millions of people died or became

2714
01:57:22,560 --> 01:57:19,960
ill as a result of this fact that

2715
01:57:23,610 --> 01:57:22,570
science was wrong in these particular

2716
01:57:26,070 --> 01:57:23,620
cases

2717
01:57:28,050 --> 01:57:26,080
sanim Kirkuk Wars before we have to

2718
01:57:30,300 --> 01:57:28,060
close it out yeah I think there's a

2719
01:57:32,130 --> 01:57:30,310
lesson here we need to be careful about

2720
01:57:34,080 --> 01:57:32,140
believing the experts who haven't

2721
01:57:37,500 --> 01:57:34,090
studied the evidence relevant to the

2722
01:57:39,570 --> 01:57:37,510
particular problem at hand but who think

2723
01:57:41,280 --> 01:57:39,580
that the if it were true they would know

2724
01:57:44,850 --> 01:57:41,290
about it and they don't so it must not

2725
01:57:48,330 --> 01:57:44,860
be it's called arrogance and ego in

2726
01:57:50,430 --> 01:57:48,340
place of curiosity and withholding

2727
01:57:53,310 --> 01:57:50,440
judgment until you have more data and

2728
01:57:57,090 --> 01:57:53,320
we're always in danger of having

2729
01:57:59,970 --> 01:57:57,100
progress delayed by people who use these

2730
01:58:01,410 --> 01:57:59,980
techniques and refuse to look to the

2731
01:58:05,400 --> 01:58:01,420
world of the future they're looking at

2732
01:58:08,210 --> 01:58:05,410
the past and we have a need for many new

2733
01:58:10,610 --> 01:58:08,220
ideas progress comes from doing things

2734
01:58:13,170 --> 01:58:10,620
differently I'll tell you what stands

2735
01:58:16,650 --> 01:58:13,180
where they can find more the things that

2736
01:58:18,870 --> 01:58:16,660
you do the where they can find the book

2737
01:58:22,560 --> 01:58:18,880
where they can find your site I'll

2738
01:58:26,190 --> 01:58:22,570
mention the triple w dot Stanton

2739
01:58:29,900 --> 01:58:26,200
Friedman com is mine you can use PayPal

2740
01:58:36,170 --> 01:58:29,910
and Kathy what's your site mine is

2741
01:58:39,120 --> 01:58:36,180
www.hs mine - Mardon ma rden dot-com

2742
01:58:41,540 --> 01:58:39,130
okay and we'll set up links for both at

2743
01:58:43,200 --> 01:58:41,550
the podcast comm we'd like to thank

2744
01:58:46,920 --> 01:58:43,210
Stanton Friedman

2745
01:58:48,270 --> 01:58:46,930
Kathleen Martin both responsible for a

2746
01:58:50,640 --> 01:58:48,280
new book called science was wrong

2747
01:58:52,200 --> 01:58:50,650
startling truths about cures theories

2748
01:58:54,990 --> 01:58:52,210
and inventions they declare an

2749
01:58:57,739 --> 01:58:55,000
impossible a special thanks to Paul

2750
01:59:00,589 --> 01:58:57,749
Kimball where do we find you

2751
01:59:04,429 --> 01:59:00,599
in the land beyond time hanging out with

2752
01:59:05,899 --> 01:59:04,439
the sleestaks folks think if folks

2753
01:59:07,279 --> 01:59:05,909
listening don't know where to find me

2754
01:59:09,350 --> 01:59:07,289
now then that means I probably don't

2755
01:59:11,540 --> 01:59:09,360
want them to find me so red star film

2756
01:59:14,449 --> 01:59:11,550
stop blogspot.com come give you their

2757
01:59:16,009 --> 01:59:14,459
folks Paul Kim Bo Stan Freedman Kathleen

2758
01:59:19,860 --> 01:59:16,019
Martin thanks for joining us on the

2759
01:59:28,120 --> 01:59:19,870
podcast thank you for having my cue ciao

2760
01:59:29,929 --> 01:59:28,130
[Music]

2761
01:59:32,629 --> 01:59:29,939
presentation of making the impossible

2762
01:59:35,440 --> 01:59:32,639
Incorporated tune in next week for a new